|This is an archive of User:Rolandius/Mentor.
- The capital in the infobox.
- The capital is Astrannar and right now it is blank.
Thanks for catching this its not the first time someone vanadalized the infobox... It will be fixed.
- It was a technical issue, the section was capitalized when it should have been lower case.
- When the Scourge attacked Lordaeron, the Agamands decided to hold fast to their home, and ordered their farmhands to remain on the property to defend it. This effort proved to be in vain; the Agamands and their farmhands were massacred by the Scourge, and most of them arisen in their service...however, a select few have broken away, and become Forsaken instead.
- I think it should be noted that none of the actual "Agamands" are part of the Forsaken, just some of the farmhands.
- The whole page.
- I was wondering if anyone was planning on doing a population section like the Lands of Conflict page has on it?
- The whole page
- The entry Stormwind should probably be written as Stormwind (Stormwind City) since the whole population of the Stormwind region resides in Stormwind City but the region goes a bit beyond just the city. The entry Dun Morogh (Ironforge) should be split into two. It is said that although "Ironforge is located in Dun Morogh, the city is detailed under its own region entry". Dun Morogh has a population of 28,000 including Ironforge's population. Ironforge though has a population of 20,000. The Alterac Mountains entry should have an asterix. The total population is unknown but we know that there are at least 1,800 residents. The entry for Dalaran should say 3,000+ and maybe written as Dalaran (Dalaran) since it is similiar to Stormwind in that the population of the region Dalaran seems to all be in the city of Dalaran but the region territory extends a bit beyond the city proper. The entry Silverpine Forest should have an asterix. The total population is unknown but we know that there are at least 2,600 residents. The Tirisfal Glades (including Undercity) entry should be split into two. It is said that although "Undercity is located in the Tirisfal Glades, the city receives its own region entry". Tirisfal Glades has a population of 18,000 but Undercity has a population of 13,000. The entry Quel'Thalas is actually called Region of Quel'Thalas in the book and includes 3 entries under it: Blackened Woods, Silvermoon, and Zul’Aman. According to this depending on how you show this on the page, the Region of Quel'Thalas could include the population of Zul'aman.
The stormwind article is about the entire region not just the city, and includes the references to uncounted harpies that live outside the city. Note that Brann mentions that his population coutns are approximates, and that he can't count every single individual within a region. Some are too dangerous to try to count.
Dun Morogh and Ironforge are already split into two. Kingdom of Ironforge and Ironforge each have their own articles. There isn't enough of a reason to shcange the page of Dalaran, since its mostly about the history of the Dalaran, and the infobox makes the difference. Generally speaking we try to avoid having too many spinoff pages, especially ones with with parenthesis. Undercity already has its own article, and should already have a lore regions category tagged on it. Actually its "Regions of Quel'Thalas", the region of Quel'Thalas is already discussed in main Quel'Thalas article, and the regions are a section within that article. Note that the region is also simply called "Quel'Thalas" in later rpg books. The population numbers you have listed are already listed in their respective articles in infoboxes.
P.S. Be aware of the couple of typographical issues relating to population numbers in the both LoC and LoM books. These involve the math not quite matching up with listed numbers on other pages, or percentages going beyond 100%, at least one article in LoM adds up to like 110% population. That's to say its like hypothetically saying that britain holds 60% of the worlds population and that US holds 60% of the worlds population. Its a mathamaticall impossibility.Baggins (talk) 09:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- First off, Brann does say that his population counts are sometimes approximates as you pointed out but that he will usually say when it is a speculated number. Stormwind City is an Alliance city and has a goverment that tracks its population I am sure. Brann is talking about other areas that are either too dangerous or have no government to help him in his population count, and he does say approximately in those situations.
- Second, under Stormwind, and every other entry, it shows the races and in this case does not include harpies. The population is not based on anything besides what Brann wrote under population. He wrote the population percentages even to show this. The population of Stormwind therefore is Stormwind City. As you can see it says Stormwind, then its population, and Stormwind City, and its population. Both are the same number. That is why I was saying that most, if not all, of Stormwind's population is located in Stormwind City.
- Finally, I was talking about Dun Morogh, Ironforge, Dalaran, Undercity, etc. being split on that population section on that one page only not in the whole of WoWWiki. You said above though that the Lands of Conflict page will be losing that whole section anyways so the point is moot.
- I did notice the dozens of population numbers being crazy. In fact, I made a sort of rough errata using my own observations and the author's errata, but since it is unofficial, I will probably put it on my user page. Some things are so crazy though that I will be putting them on this page to see if it okay to change it on the WoWWiki pages. For example Ratchet. Ratchet's numbers are so crazy that it makes the errors of things like 60% plus 60% adding to 100% look minor. LOL Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Yet harpies do exist, read the geography section of stormwind region. Outside the city things are too dangerous to actually count the population numbers out there. Because of the wolves, the harpies, and large mountain ranges. Actually there are usually alot of minor populations and races that Brann can't count due to them being dangerous or to use the term uncivilized. Though he sometimes mentions them specifically in his actual discussions of the area.
Oh you didn't mean split the pages into separate pages? The infobox pages for dalaran, dun morogh, undercity, already split the individual city populations into different sections, under capital, major city etc. Yes, actually that's another issue that's really strange in Brann's books, the population numbers for the zone are actually a combination of city populations as well. See the introductions to Dun Morogh, Dalaran, Ogrimmar etc. The book explains that yes, its part of the other other, but it also treats them as their own region as well. So it repeats the population twice, in both places. The same is done here.
We follow the same format as the book (although we go as far to use the math as best as possible, even if some mathamatic issues by the authors make it hard to be truely accurate), for example from Dun Morogh in the rpg;
- Dun Morogh
- Capital: Ironforge (20,000).
- Population: 28,000 (85% Ironforge dwarf, 10% gnome, 3% Wildhammer dwarf, 2% human).
- Government: Hereditary monarchy.
- Ruler: King Magni Bronzebeard (male Ironforge dwarf Ftr7/Gla10).
- Major Settlements: Kharanos (4,000), Anvilmar (3,400),
- Brewnall Village (600).
As seen, capital is not split from the Dun Morogh population counts, even if the book also treats it as its own region, and repeats those same populations.
Ratchet? You mean going from like what was it 20,000 to 9,000 between books? Well one issue comes from the fact that while Lands of Mystery was published after World of Warcraft RPG book, most of it was apparently written before the corebook was released. It was actually going to be released for the the original Wacraft RPG, but was updated for the World of Warcraft RPG when they switched over. The book also takes place somewhat before World of Warcraft timeline wise. Due to the fact that its either a retcon, a mistake, or chronological boost in population, and no way to know which for sure, we list both population numbers on the ratchet page.Baggins (talk) 17:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- I know harpies exist in that area. I am just saying that he did not count them as part of the population of Stormwind or list them as a race. So technically, the population of Stormwind mostly resides all in Stormwind City. I am not sure why he did it like that but maybe it was too dangerous like you said, maybe there are not a great number of harpies, or maybe harpies were not seen as an intelligent race and instead just creatures until a later time.
- No I didn't mean split the pages, since WoWWiki already has those pages, but instead I just meant that one section of Lands of Conflict which has been removed now anyways. LOL
- Yes the infobox above is good and just like it is in Brann's books. I didn't want to change that.
- Yes the Ratchet thing is like you described above. It somehow went from 20,000 to 9,000. The editor or author put out that unofficial errata though that says he thinks it should have been 7,000 instead of 20,000. That would make more sense because a population could grow from 7,000 to 9,000 more realistically then from 20,000 to 9,000 (not including some huge disaster or war). I found one other huge crazy thing though and I am not sure if you are aware of it. The population of Ratchet is said to be 80% goblin on page 29 of LoM. This makes the 20,000 number and even the 9,000 number for Ratchet crazy. If 80% of Ratchet is goblin (using the 9,000 population number) then that would mean there are 7,200 goblins in Ratchet. The goblin population though of all of the Barrens is said to be 20% of 17,000. That means there are 3,400 goblins in all of the Barrens yet there are somehow 7,200 goblins just in Ratchet? Now if we use the 20,000 figure for Ratchet you can see that it would be even crazier. The numbers are way off even if you explain it on approximates. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, the "author" actually was Luke Johnson as I recall, he was an author, not necessary the author of that section, and he later became the head editor. Generally its his opinion, that's why its unofficial errata. If you meant Magus Rogue, you'd have to check the book credits to see if he was actually involved in the book. In anycase its still an "opinion" of course, thus "unofficial".
Though I still point out that Lands of Mystery is somewhat of an overlap book, since it was actaully being written before the WoW corebook, but was published after. How much changed between it initial publication and after is unknown. But certain bits of Brann's account reference things that occur "before" the start of the corebook, and others may be roughly during the corebook/WoW. So in other words it could be a population jump of 9,000 to 20,000 under one situation, depending on when Brann wrote it, or a decrease, or simply different authors "approximations".
Though like I said the percentage stuff is way off in some sections especially for Lands of Mystery. I think there was an issue with either Orgrimmar or Durotar and similar areas where the math doesn't quite add up. Brann might be a great scholar, but his math is well wanting LOL. There is even a part of Lands of Mystery where Brann gives two different populations for Aerie Peak, :p....Baggins (talk) 03:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- This thing says his name is Adam Loyd and he is a game designer and author of I think WoWRPG, MM&M, and LOM. He got help from "Warlock", "Kenzuki", and "Deicide". At least that is what this World of Warcraft RPG Core Rulebook Errata states. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Ya, Magus Rogue, good guy. Anyways if he contributed to Lands of Mystery, for some reason his name isn't listed in the credits. In anycase, if he did contribute to the book he would have been one of many of the authors of that book. Warlock, Kenzuki, and Deicide are fans, not officials or writers of Whitewolf. Thus why the errata is "unofficial". Its purely a fan document. Adam Lloyd actually started writing around the time of the Alliance Player's Guide, long after the release of Lands of Mystery. I don't know if he was hired before then or not.Baggins (talk) 05:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- I am not sure when he started. It just says that he is "a game designer and author for the World of Warcraft RPG line". The document though only has errata for the WoWRPG, MM&M, LoM, and LoM Web Enhancement books. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Which he was not a part of. Like I said he didn't get hired on until Alliance Player's Guide, and the last few books of the series. The errata is unofficial because it was created by fans for the fans, and that's why its said to be unofficial. In anycase we don't reference unofficial errata. We don't discuss unofficial errata, and it has no baring on any information inserted into pages.Baggins (talk) 05:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- So the information on WoWWiki saying that Stormwind's population, Ratchet's population, and other things may be wrong is the view of some other different person involved with the RPGs? I thought that the author of that errata I mentioned was the same person who's opinions were talked about on here, except he kept being called an editor. LOL Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oh you mean the references to Luke Johnson's quotes? He's a different guy. He's been an employee with Whitewolf since the beginning. He was an author and later editor from the beginning of the series. Although we don't quite take his words as "fact" either, due to our lore policy which states;
- "Comments by authors, artists, and Blizzard employees may also be of interest, but should always be clearly cited as such, and not taken as definitive statements of fact. "
- Neither, it was just an opinion he made on a forum post, a non-formal medium.Baggins (talk) 06:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Where do we put books found within lore stories if they are only named and do not have information about them?
Note Meitre scrolls aren't exactly a "proper noun" in the book. they are bunch of random scrolls, and the scrolls themselves and even the spells are always lowercase. I'm actually thinking that Meitre scrolls and the "Meitre spells" should be moved to "Meitre" and discuss a bit more about the character's significance.Baggins (talk) 04:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- How about we make a page about the eras in Warcraft? Here is what I have found in the RPGs. Some of these may be rough or speculation:
- 1st age begins with the dawn of Azeroth & ends with the Sundering. LoC 17 S&L 33, 67 WoWRPG 36
- 2nd age begins with the Troll Wars and the creation of the Order of Tirisifal & ends with the defeat of Sargeras. LoC 19, 20 S&L 80
- 3rd age begins with the Shadow Pact & ends after Medivh is born?
- 4th age begins and ends with the First War. S&L 33, 81
- 5th age begins & ends with the Second. S&L 33
- 6th age begins & ends with the Third War. LoC 21 S&L 33
- 7th age begins with WoW & still is ongoing. LoC 25 WoWRPG 363
Its a bit too speculatory and arbitrary. None of those sourcee are specific to name "ages", other than maybe the "Age of Discovery". Unless blizzard creates actual "ages" we need to avoid "inventing" ages. In anycase, it sort of overlaps with the time line articles.Baggins (talk) 03:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- A new page not on WoWWiki. "Millennia after the Sundering was the Age of Discovery, when the young races explored the world and unearthed some of its secrets." LoM 82
- A new page not on WoWWiki. This is the organization on Theramore which consists of humans (5 seats), elves (2 seats) & dwarves (0 seats). M&M 185 WRPG 199 It has also been called the Assembly of Theramore. WRPG 234 It has also been called the High Council of Lordaeron. S&L 48
- I don't want to confuse the "Alliance Assembly" with the "High Council of Lordaeron" that Baggins said might have been around in the eastern kingdoms. I am not sure if they are talking about a "new" High Council of Lordaeron or the old High Council of Lordaeron. It is hard to tell as it just says that Jaina resents the debate among the members of the High Council of Lordaeron but admires things like Thrall's founding of Durotar. This quote is from Shadows & Light so I think at that time any High Council in the eastern kingdoms would have been destroyed? The "Alliance Assembly"/"Assembly of Theramore" names have more clarity as to what they are and when they were created. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:05, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Ya, that's the difficulty with that quote. It could be a reference to the old organization, which may exist in some form, perhaps via Stormwind or Hillsbrad now, which she would have contact with... Alliance Player's Guide gives the implication that there are alot of government councils laying about the Alliance... :p, and its one of the reasons they don't really get anything done.Baggins (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- A new page not on WoWWiki. Archmage Alphus Wordwill was someone Brann talked to in Silverpine Forest. He wrote notes about what he called "The Worgen Curse". The RPG has the actual paper which we could put on WoWWiki. He wants to cure the people, not by transforming them back to humans, but instead by making them keep their "intelligence" and fighting for the "good" forces as worgen.LoC 104, 105
- Kalimdor is divided into three continents known as North Kalimdor, Central Kalimdor, and South Kalimdor. Earlier sources varied on how it was divided. World of Warcraft Manual divided it into Northern and Southern Kalimdor. At least one map has divided it into the three major continents of Durotar, Mulgore, and Kalimdor (shown through largest font size and caps).WRPG map A few maps however do not divide Kalimdor into separate continents and treat it as one single large landmass.
- I cannot find any sources that actually name North Kalimdor, Northern Kalimdor, Central Kalimdor, South Kalimdor, or Southern Kalimdor as "continents". They are named just "areas" of Kalimdor and are not even capitalized when mentioned in the text. I think the maps are just showing sections of Kalimdor. I also cannot find any sources that actually name Durotar or Mulgore as "continents". They are named just "regions" of Kalimdor when mentioned in the text. The RPG book that comes with the map also shows them as just two of many regions in Kalimdor. Scarce evidence shows Kalimdor as being more than one continent, even due to its size, unlike the eastern landmass which has many sources showing that it is made of more than one continent.
- A new page not on WoWWiki. Forgol is a male centaur shaman. He is part of the Krenka tribe, and in the adventure titled "Shrine of the Scarab", he has a vision showing the final resting place of Krenka, the tribe founder. It goes on to say his adventures.HPG 224-226
- A new page not on WoWWiki. He is featured in the adventure "Shrine of the Scarab". Teenik was a gnomish arcanist and explorer seeking treasure within the Wailing Caverns. His research suggested that a great centaur hero was laid to rest in this area, and searching the main body of the caves so far produced no results. He found a side area while exploring tiny passageways using the deviate fish size-reduction effect combined with Noggenfogger elixir. While attempting to investigate another, larger passage formerly located in the southeast corner of this room, he created a rockslide that took his life.HPG 232
- A new page not on WoWWiki. Agent would be a "occupation" and we could list named agents on the page. Double agents also exist, and items with that name are found in WoW.WRPG 227
- While it is referenced, there is no article on this subject in the book. This has "relevance" issues. If you can put something together with meat via a "sandbox" off your user:name, we'll let you know if its worth it.
- However the reference to "agent and double agent" on pg 227 is a roleplay suggestion more than a informational section. It only a setence or two long, most of it discussing how to play the game, and "what you can do if you play with that character". It doesn't really go into detail what a double agent actually is.Baggins (talk) 17:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- See it that way: If the most common definition of something that exists in the real world is identical to the one you're giving it in a game, the page is entirely irrelevant.
- An "agent" is a real world definition applied to RPG/Game terms etc. The page is irrelevant. Adys 04:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- See it this way: Even if the page is irrelevant, it can still be used as a disambiguation. Adding what little information there is from the RPG is not a bad thing. It can only be a net plus to get a person from one place to another who looks up the word agent, for whatever reason. --Sky (t · c · w) 13:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- A new page not on WoWWiki. A chart exists showing the hierarchy of all the elements in the Elemental Plane.S&L 141
Most of this can be inserted into the info of the various related race pages. No need to create a new page on it. Also consider there is very little info beyond the chart relating to this issue. So essentially it creates a stub page issue.Baggins (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- The chart can probably be added to Elemental, and that should be sufficient. --Sky (t · c · w) 00:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- I was wondering if I could put the size of "known" Azeroth from "lore" on here. We all know Azeroth in WoW is not to scale and this would put everything in perspective. I am not sure if this would fall under speculation or not. I mainly used information found in one RPG. I tried it out using the most current map of Azeroth to find the size of the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor. I am not sure if Outland is supposed to be the same scale as Azeroth, but if it is, I could try to find the size of it also? LoC 28
- The RPG doesn't actually give an exact distances and size for Azeroth. There are a few references to travel times between places in the books, and novels, but not much else. While there are references to RPG abilities using "feet" for speed, this is more for game mechanics than actual scale purposes. Luke Johnson said once that they intentionally try to keep it vague enough so that players can create the world in the scale they want to use, thus avoiding in issues with travel time when playing an rpg campaign.Baggins (talk) 17:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well I was not trying to say the "whole" world but just the land we know about. I know the RPG doesn't say Azeroth is so and so size. I saw the feet thing which I agree is for game mechanics. Actually that is how I got my inspiration. I had seen 2 or 3 pretty good attempts from people on forums on "finding" the size of the landmasses. They used complex equations using feet, running speed, mount speed, size of a body lying down, etc. to find the size of the continents. The thing is their conclusion was that the size of WoW was in one case smaller than Manhattan and in another case smaller than the Isle of Wight. I am not sure why, but no one used any info from actual lore that I could see. So their conclusion was that the part of Azeroth we can visit was pretty small, which is sort of correct due to scale issues, but they did not think about the size of Azeroth in lore which is way bigger. So they found the size of the landmasses using game mechanics which are to scale only to characters running around WoW. I used the information from the lore which 90% of it was in Lands of Conflict. It tells you how many days it took to travel from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay. So you just look at what they said the miles they travelled each day and multiply it by the days it took to get there. Voila you have the distance from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay. From that you can find the distance of pretty much everything else on Azeroth — the land we can explore at least so far. It is simple math. It would seem that if we cannot take the figures as truth then we might as well ignore 90% of the information on WoWWiki we got from lore. Someone could say "I don't think Sargeras is a demon because the RPG cannot be trusted" or "I don't believe there is a difference between the orcs in Durotar and the ones on Outland so we should only have one page about all orcs". You have to sort of believe the majority of information they say in the RPGs is correct, unless otherwise stated, or else we wouldn't be able to use them as sources. Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- Their conclusions were pretty accurate to the scale seen ingame in the MMO, based on the fact that we know the ingame heights of player characters, and ingame "meters" for spells and what not. Of course the ingame scale is pretty unrealistic as far as a real world scale would be. The Game scale and lore scale are not compatible.
- As for the travels by say the dwarf that took four years to walk from Sunwell to Bootybay. What isn't taken into consideration, how many stops he made, how often he rested, was there any backtracking involved, etc. By means of air there is very little to slow them, but it still doesn't take into account possible stops, or what speed they were traveling at exactly (the by feet statistics is tied to much into rpg mechanics to to be used accurately).
- Additionally the problem is compounded by different lore stating different things. Something might take a month to travel between point a and point b in one source, but take two days in another, and maybe a few hours in another. Different sources such as the novel or the RPG give different rates, and travel times by different people.Baggins (talk) 03:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well that is what I am saying. The conclusions were accurate, to the scale though in the MMO.
- As for everything else you said. I did not count the 4 years dwarf due to all those things you stated. No info. The air travel one tells you everything which is what I used. It says how much it stopped, how many miles it traveled in a day, how many days it took to get there...everything you need to know. I don't see any source saying it took some other amount of time to get there by zeppelin. It seems all there to me and correct. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:15, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- I haven't really seen anything contradicting the one source I found. In fact, I don't think I have seen that many sources talking about how long it took a zeppelin to get somewhere within a certain time and sitance. So the consistentcy thing is not a problem. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- Point of note I did the math that you refer to, and get an absurdly large number between Sunwell Grove and Booty Bay (20,000 miles with 12-hour stops, and 40,000 miles if they don't make stops)... I mean that's astronomically larger than Earth... You wouldn't be able to walk that in four years... even if you could walk none stop with no rest... Certainly doesn't fit in with the facts we know about people traveling the distance between say Stormwind and Lordaeron in much less time than that, a couple of weeks at the most.Baggins (talk) 05:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- Just chiming in... In-game scale is far from accurate and shouldn't be used. There's nothing wrong with a few unknowns here and there. That's how things like the *myst isles randomly getting "discovered" can work. There's no definitive size I've seen anywhere (in-game/rpg) that could nail down a size we could post that the Blizz lore people wouldn't laugh at. That's one thing we need to keep in mind too. The more crazy leaps in logic we have, the less seriously Blizz actually sees the Bookkeepers. So, "size unknown" works for me. --k_d3 06:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- More importantly you ignored a major detail in the 80 days quote. That they were working on confirming details of the maps drawn by Poylie Stonesole. You don't do that kind of work going at 500 miles an hour, it would be a blur. Cartography is a slow process, and you don't just travel in a straight line to do it. It takes circling points, and seeing them from different angles. You have to work within the area, not simply "pass it up". Common logic here...Baggins (talk) 06:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- Kaydeethree, I am using lore scale not in-game scale. Using in-game scale, the Eastern Kingdoms is smaller than Manhanttan and is 9 miles from Booty Bay to Sunwell Grove some other people have found. Talk about crazy numbers, I am pretty sure the Eastern Kingdoms is not only 9 miles from one side to another. Also, I wouldn't worry about Blizzard since they ok'ed the RPG where these stats came from.
- Also, they were going 40 mph Baggins so I am not sure how you got 500 mph. Common math here. Like I said, this was not the only source I used. I used the other RPGs. The zeppelin speed was changed from 40 mph to 15 mph in the later RPGs. So going from Booty Bay to Sunwell Grove in 80 days using the 12-hour stops would come out to 7,500 miles. Rolandius (talk - contr) 09:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- You ignored most of the quote;
- However, you can't use a future source and retroactively apply it previous source. You have to use the context of the source where the information was originally published. In that book the context was 500 miles every 12 hours.
- Honestly one group of authors isn't necessarily going to be taking previous authors figures into account.
- The RPG doesn't say anything about "circling around several times" or "going slower". I am just going by the facts which say that the zeppelin went from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay. If you want to ignore the RPG than okay. I am not. The context was it ended up traveling around 500 miles every 12 hours but that was back when it was 40 mph (to be exact it was 480 miles every 12 hours which agrees with the "around 500 miles" entry). Using the official World of Warcraft RPG Conversion Document, the zeppelin has been retroactively changed to 15 mph. So you take the old and convert it to the new:
- (old) 40 mph/(new) 15 mph = (old) just under 80 days/(new) x days
- x days = 30
- (old) 40 mph/(new) 15 mph = (old) 480 miles a day/(new) x miles a day
- x miles a day = 180
- At 15 mph, the zeppelin finishes its journey in just under 30 days. Using both methods you stated about, it would end up 2,700 miles with "12-hour stops" and 5,400 miles if they "don't make stops" from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay. Sounds reasonable to me. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- You are still making the large assumption that they traveled in a "straight line", actually it says they took Poyli Stonesole's trail (which we technically don't know where exactly he traveled, just the start and finish of his four year journey).
- In other words without a few more details your math is purely speculation. You can't assume to ignore the information given in Lands of Conflict because stats for a different Zeppelin exists in a later book, when the authors wrote the quotes in Lands of Conflict they had older stats in mind. It doesn't matter if they retconned things in a later source, the problem still exists that the authors wrote the content based on older stats, not some future stats that weren't released That's two problems with your assumptions right there. Its too speculatory, and thus why its not worthy of being on any pages.
- BTW, its irrelevent considering the amount of assumptions you made, but your math is off. At 180 miles a day they would have traveled 14,400 miles if traveling in a straight line for 80 days, which is still very huge, but still makes too much of an assumption for all the above reasons, mainly assuming that Poly and the zep traveled in straight lines.Baggins (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- First off, I never said I was going to put my conclusion of the size of the continent as official information on a page. Sky said above what I could and could not put. You chose to keep arguing though. Second, why do you think they have the conversion document for? Thirdly, it never says the zeppelin did not go in a straight line. Why do you think people use zeppelins? To go sideways and backwards and than forwards? It is so they can get from point A to point B quicker. Why would the RPG give us information about point A to point B at a certain speed if we cannot use the information? The RPG says 1.) Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay 2.) How long it took. You are throwing in made up variables like maybe they circled a number of times, maybe they had too look at something with different vantages, etc. What is next? Maybe they took a break because someone was sick or maybe they stopped at the Brewfest for awhile? If you think this information is invalid then what stops from someone saying everything in the RPG is invalid and should be taken out of WoWWiki? Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- Conversion doc is for gameplay mechanics not "lore". Although the problem is you tried to read into it as such. In anycase 15 miles an hour is not phenomanly fast that is the speed of a trotting horse. You can't take the source out of context of what was intended. In that source the speed was about 40/41 mph.Baggins (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The geography of Warcraft is strange and therefore it does not always transfer the same way from RPG to WoW and vice versa; would you really want to spend an hour (or more) to get from the Great Lift to Mor'shan Rampart? I think not. That's the way the game adapts to the RPG and we'll just have to live with it. It's the same way that Ratchet does not have lots of busy goblins running around and whatnot, it just doesn't have space in WoW. So Blizzard has left that out, and keeps the most essential parts in the MMORPG.
Regarding your maths Rolandius you should not base your "facts" on vague quotes and assumptions. 500 miles / 12 hours = (circa) 41.2 miles per hour. Also you can't use the current speed of a zeppelin and use it on a zeppelin that was before. It doesn't work that way; you'll have to use the numbers that are currently available.
Again about the zeppelin: all it says is that it went from point A to point B, it does not say it went in a straight line. See where I'm going? It may have taken a big break somewhere, got in an attack with some monsters, had to steer away from some dangerous area etc. User:Gourra/Sig2 02:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- I know that. That is why I figured it out for lore people. So people can see how different the in-game world is from the lore world. You know, like it doesn't "really" take 10 seconds to run from Goldshire to SW. I got my info from at least 4 different RPGs so they all are wrong? It said around 500 miles / 12 hours. That fits with the 40 mph. Why doesn't it work like that. Isn't that called a retro? Now you are doing what Baggins is doing. There is no "circling", "got in a fight with monsters", etc. It plainly says point A to point B. Why would the RPG give you stats then say oh lets not tell them about all the things the zeppelin may have run into that will confuse them. I am using the RPG and your throwing in invisible variables. Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- You are assuming they went from point a to point b in a straight line. However, Poyli's trail couldn't even be a straight line as there is no way to travel straight from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay, there are mountain ranges in the way. Also if you assume that the zeppelin went straight then you would be ignoring the fact that the purpose of the flight was to confirm Poyli's maps, and follow his trail. These are not invisible variables.Baggins (talk) 03:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- From the air they could go above mountains you know. Also, they have a bigger view from above versus someone on the ground looking around as he walks. Also, why would they tell us all this information just so we could not use it? Really, they are going to tell us a zeppelin went from point A to point B at x mph for x days then say "but too bad you can't use this information". Like I said, you could come up with dozens of "but what if someone got sick", "what if they circled a few times", "what if they ran into a flock of birds", etc. forever. They are telling us this information so we can use it. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- If they made a detour and skipped over the mountains, then it would be ignoring the fact that they were intentionally following Poyli's trail to confirm his maps. The whole purpose of their flight was to confirm those maps, not make a direct journey between booty bay and sunwell grove. You don't make detours if are trying confirm someone's maps. Also, you just made a invisible variable by assuming they would make a detour.
- As for the intent, one of hte authors of the book, "Luke Johnson" said the comment was not to confirm the distance of the world, but just to give ideas of how much travel time might take. Note he's the one I pointed to above that also said that they never gave "specific" distances in the book. If anyone interpreted there being a specific distance, it was their own assumption and not the intent of hte authors.
- The quote? A long dead forum post at the offiical warcraft rpg forum. Try using wayback machine, and looking for articles dealing with world size, world scale, etc.
- Well timeframes do not give an exact distances, it only describes how long it takes to get between two points, one can assume the distance based on knowledge of standard walking speed, standard horse speeds, etc, based on whatever they were traveling on. But these are just rough guestimates.Baggins (talk) 03:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, saying "Try using wayback machine" is not a source. My info is not a guestimate. So your telling me that if someone finds a source saying so and so walked from SW to Goldshire at x mph for x number of hours that we cannot try to figure out the distance? That is crazy. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- The source was WArcraft RPG forum. But like I said the discussion is long dead. If you are interested in it your havel to look for yourself.
- Also let's put it this way if the authors of that book intended for people do to the math and use it to figure out the world scale, what size world do you think they had intended? It certainly wasn't the future retconned zeppelin speed numbers, unless you assume they were psychics (but that's just crazy talk).
- Okay next time you ask for a source I will say I dunno go find it I guess. Well the "world", I don't know what they intended. I only know the continents. They were not psychics. It was just retconned like how a lot of things are retconned. You would have to ask whoever changed it why they did it. I am just going with what they say. The distance would be, "using all your three methods" now from above, that from Booty Bay to Sunwell Grove the distance between them equals the same distance as from Los Angeles to New York multiplied by 1.1 using your "12 hour stops", multiplied by 2.2 using your "all day" method, and multiplied by 4.4 using your newest method that you blamed on me when you made a mistake on it yourself. LOL Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- The problem here is that the source is dead. Its a dead link. I can tell you were the source is, but the link isn't going to help you. The discussion was like four years ago.
- Yes, you are definitely crazy to be reading into sources this too deeply...
- Also , the "they retconned it" doesn't quite work because one it wasn't a retcon, it was a rule change. Retcons are changes to lore, not chagnes to game rules.
- It is more than a simple retcon, if it was meant to represent world scale. Milage is one thing, but being specific aobut the amount a ship can travel in certain amount of the time of the day is different. The rule change book only changed the distance for the M&M book but doesn't list any change for the page in question in Lands of Conflict. Lands of conflict Zeppelin was already different than the M&M zepp in that it had three crew members instead of two. NOw its possible that 500 was a typo and was meant to be 50 miles in 12 hours, or that osmeone messed up on the eight days. But I really doubt that the authors intended for it to be a math problem in the first place. I also know so for a fact, because I was in the discussion with Luke Johnson way back when. The real truth is probably that a future author decided that the new zeppelins would work better at 15 miles an hour for the purpose of the game, but didn't look how it would impound previous written lore. Not that it mattered, because as a game mechanic its not necessarily intended to be viewed as hard lore.
- Well I dunno then. If it is gone then we can't use that source. Well retcon or rule change, the thing is it changed. The M&M zeppelin was the same as the LoC one it states right there. It just added another guy to fly. I think it sounds reasonable that the Eastern Kingdoms is that size. It is much more believable then saying the Eastern Kingdoms is 6 miles long like some other people on forumns figured out by using in-game methods. Like I said before, this means that everything else from the RPGs is invalid too. Someone could say "well I don't believe that zeppelin part so I don't believe any of the RPGs". Your pretty much saying that if anyone finds a source saying someone travelled from one location to another at x mph and it takes x hours that we have to ignore that info?Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- nah, we just avoid interpreting too much into the game rules, it doesn't mean you throw out the entire source. We don't simply throw out all the other sources that may not agree with it (i.E if an author givews a time + mode of travel reference in a book). By simply avoiding the subject we avoid alot of head aches. Also as for the rpg, you might be interested to note that as far as game rules, as stated in the corebook "errata" are suggested changes, its up to the GM to decide what he wants to work with. At least one of books says that differences in stats may represent different versions of that vehicle or item. Thus its very dangerous to read into the stats as being continuity changes (retcon = retroactive continituity) rather than being just a game mechanic change or suggestion.
- By the way the idea that "one part of somethign is wrong, so all of it is wrong" is a fallacy, [poison the well]. Its an illogical assumption and thus invalid reasoning. It will not be taken seriously.Baggins (talk) 04:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- It was a different machine in that it was a 3 crew ship instead of a 2 crew ship. Read the oriignal stats, which were very specific that the one in M&M has "Crew 2 (1 pilot, 1 engine tender)" So ya the stats might be largely shared but there are differences. Please stop with the fallacies... they are illogical arguements... There is no [fallacy] in pointing out the truth of someone's use of a fallacy. That is the fallacy if the problem of the one who commits it, and it prevents accuracy and truth in their arguement. Fallacies are not to be believed, nor do they support someone's claims, they only undermine them, in most cases remove it from all serious discussion. The point won't be taken seriously.Baggins (talk) 04:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- There yo ago again you are wrong. It says agian that zeppelins have three crew members.
- "A zeppelin can cover about 500 miles in a 12- hour day of travel, allowing the crew time to rest and make any necessary repairs. The average cost of hiring a zeppelin and its three-man crew (pilot, navigator, and engineer)..."
- Either its a rule change to all zeppelins or it is talking about slighly different zeppelins. IN anycase there was no errata made for the LoC book dealing with zeppelins. In anycase they are game rule changes, not continuity changes, so not retcons.
- Rolandius your the one poisoining the well. I would never suggest to ignore an entire rpg because one possible mistake. You just destroyed your arguement, with illogical thought. Perhaps I should spell it out for you... A fallacy is a type of lie. Perhaps you dont' know you are lieing, and are just deluded... But it is a lie in a debate. I'm guessing you never learned about fallacies, and don't know that you need to avoid them if you want an argument to be taken seriously, and not thrown out...Baggins (talk) 04:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- As per the first paragraph of the covesion document, it changes "game mechanic information". IT states the "Warcraft lore, information on places, people, races and monsters, tips for players and GMs, adventure ideas." remains viable.
- Actually it is the 2nd paragraph. It says "The new World of Warcraft RPG uses many of the same rules as the first edition, so much of the information in those books remains unchanged. In addition, all the books mentioned above contain Warcraft lore, information on places, people, races and monsters, tips for players and GMs, adventure ideas, and a great deal of other information that remains valuable". It then lists the new changes of which the zeppelin is one of them. So 40 mph was too fast for you but 15 mph is too slow for you? I guess there are three different versions of Warcraft now. In-game, lore, and mechanical? Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Wow your clueless to a default. No I don't have a aproblem with the 40 mph speed, for german Zepplins traveled 50 mph, and some versions traveled as much as 80 miles per hour. If anything 15 mph is very unrealistic, its hardly "phenomenal speed" its slower than many land vehicles and mounts. I do have a problem with the awy you tried to work out hte math, the assumptions you made. You don't even understand how the RPG mechanics work, your missing an aimportantrule having do with vehicles, and formulas related to it that interact with varios things includng the speed.Baggins (talk) 06:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I know about turning, fighting while traveling, etc. if that is what you mean by "missing an important rule". That has to do with mechanics, like you said, if you are RPGing. You have in-game and you have lore. Now you said there is in-game, in-game mechanics, lore, and lore mechanics? I am just pointing out that the 40 mph in the lore story found in LoC matches exactly the 40 mph found in M&M. So somehow in LoC they just said "hey lets pick 40 mph"? They both match, a zeppelin goes 40 mph before World of Warcraft RPG came out. All the information is there. Like I said, they wouldn't say 40 mph twice in two different sources and then not let you even use that information. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:48, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, but they didn't go 65 mph since they only used the "base speed" in the lore story as it comes out to 40 mph which matches the base speed in M&M. They tell us how many miles they traveled, where they went, and how long it took. This is enough information to calculate the distance from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay. It is like beginner math. Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, actually, the way the old Warcraft RPG mechanic system worked from what I can tell the speed was more of an average rather than base. Base speed was something introduced into the WoW RPG mechanics. However, the way its worded in LOC, it could be interpreted as going 40 miles an hour, or that they had only 500 miles worth of fuel for 12 hours. The difference in wording is noteable.Baggins (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- The fact is they traveled a certain distance in a certain speed and it took a certain amount of time. M&M and LoC both agree that it was 40 mph. I cannot argue logically with you if you are going to ignore simple math. So far you have ignored 4 RPGs. Rolandius (talk - contr) 08:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now, now sky, hypocrite much? What do you think, "Baggins going nuts is?" Yep, a personal attack. In anycase I'm through with this discussion, it as pointless and obviously built upon needless speculation, and ridiculous interpretations of the text. Rolandius can choose to blather on, but Ill be ignoring this.Baggins (talk) 16:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
- ...Said the guy who continued to argue after I said I was not going to put my "speculation" results on WoWWiki anyways about a dozen paragraphs above. LOL
- It is not "interpretation" either unless your calling simple math ratios ridiculous. I have 4 RPGs behind me. You have a source that no longer exists on some forum and your belief that the RPGs are wrong behind you. Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- Character pages should be listed under the character's full name (first and surname) if known, excluding titles such as "King" or "the Destroyer". For example, Arthas Menethil, Terenas Menethil II, Blackhand.
- It should be noted that some races and characters do not have "surnames", names like "Hellscream" or "Lightbringer" (or "The Lightbringer") are in fact titles, these are allowed as the names are how they are commonly known or can disambig between more than ;one version of the character, for example Kazzak the Supreme.
- For minor characters (normally NPCs) whose full name is unknown, names should be listed under the name that is displayed in-game, including case, e.g. High Executor Darthalia.
- I think these two policies should be clarified. If, as I have been told, WW:NCA is for in-game NPCs then what does WW:NNA apply to? Also, if none of these apply to lore characters what policy do we use for them?
Does the character have a first and surname? Is his name Phoenix Wright? Ok check, that's the name to use. Don't use Ace Attorney Wright.
1. Is the character an NPC or just mentioned in lore? Ok, just list the character's name, no titles. Captain Kidd? Ok, Kidd will do.
- Okay number two is the one that fits my situation. Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- My whole situation was "Krenka". I thought since we did not know his last name that the page should be called Khan Krenka according to policy. How do we know when to name, or not to name, something like "Khan Krenka" as the policy seems to allude? As for myself, I did not know that there were no "defined rules for centaur naming practices". Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:18, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- Titles are usually left off, except for the case of ingame NPCs. Not everyone has a surname, and a single name is their given name. The naming policy is the same for any character, no matter what race they are... You just have to think of it in two ways.
- 1. Characters from the MMO, and characters outside the MMO.
- 2. Names with titles is only for the case of the MMO due to the fact that they are often tied into certain table systems on many different game pages.
- 3. If its a non MMO character, then it follows the rule not to use "title" in the name. Less of course one is forced to use them because there are two Maddoxs.
- Okay I think i got it now. WW:NCA confused me a bit in that I thought it was saying something about lore characters on one hand and in-game characters on the other hand. I thought that we just did not know Krenka's last name yet but that he had one maybe. Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Just to clear up: The way naming articles work in general is that if the first and last name is available in any way, then that's the name we're using with articles. However if only either the first name ("Admiral John") or last name ("Captain Smith") is available, then that's what we're going to use. In the case of Khan Krenka; as per naming policy, any other name than the first and/or last name is dropped. However if there are more than one character associated with that name, then it's better to use the title together with the name (such as "Admiral Jessica"). It is most unlikely though that there are (m)any other characters that share the name Krenka. User:Gourra/Sig2 04:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- A new page not on WoWWiki. A mushroom exists that only grows in the Caves of Deep Night. A group of night elves think that they can create a potion from this mushroom that will help the high elves' arcane addiction. The delivery method, if they ever get this mushroom and create the potion, would be Theramore's water supply.WRPG 230
- A new page not on WoWWiki. Moonheart is a night elf village. After a long time of no news from the village, a party goes to see what has occured. They find that the villagers have all turned into satyrs.WRPG 230
- According to his last correspondence, Brann had just uncovered the ruins of an ancient city hidden deep within Stranglethorn when he was beset upon by a band of savage jungle troll headhunters. Presumably, Brann evaded capture, but the only real clue pertaining to his whereabouts came in the form of a vague final sentence
- "I resolved to head east…"
- This seems to be in error unless I am mistaken. I am not sure where this information is from since there is no source but it sounds similiar to Journeyman Aron Kodosbreath's expedition. Aron had a big expedition of people traveling in an area east of Booty Bay and he discovered the Savage Hills, Azotha ruins, and Titan evidence. His report is on the same page as The Explorers' Guild entry in Lands of Conflict. I also cannot find the quote of "I resolved to head east…"
- The info is not from Lands of Conflict, its from the original World of Warcraft website on blizzard.com. We have a copy of the letter archived in WoWWiki in the see also section. The original website is only accessable through wayback machine at this point.Baggins (talk) 02:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
- A new page not on WoWWiki. It says in Lands of Conflict that platinum has not yet been implemented as coinage, but that "the value of platinum is recognized, it is rare enough that it is still used primarily as a decorative material rather than a type of coinage". Also, Brann meets Tirion Fordring who is using a platinum warhammer.LoC 27, 110
- I think we should add The War of the Shifting Sands, the comics/mangas, Warcraft: Orcs and Humans Official Secrets and Solutions, Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal Official Secrets & Solutions, Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos Strategy Guide, and Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Strategy Guide to the page since they are all missing.
- What you didn't read;
- Ref and related missing author, missing title, missing date. and the other tags to create a standard look for citing sources. One must also remember to add to the end of the article under a References section (== References ==), but some people prefer to use a Notes section (== Notes ==) or a Sources section (== Sources ==). For further documentation, see the templates' respective talk pages.
BTW, the point is that <:ref> is better because you can actually give the book name in a full line, page number, and even a portion of a quote you are citing.Baggins (talk) 05:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- Okay but it also says:
- The Cite template can be used to cite to manuals, novels, and other published works in the Warcraft universe. It should be primarily used as a shorthand in the case that the contributor does not want to deal with citations using ref. Note that cite should not be used within said reference tags. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- A new page not on WoWWiki. On WoWWiki there is a quest called The Mindless Ones and the Mindless Zombie Mob NPC. The Mindless Ones are those Forsaken who have become too weak to resist the Lich King and reverted back to regular undead. They are Forsaken who have the Zombie template.HPG 160
- A new page not on WoWWiki. The Kodo Run is an even that happens maybe once a year. The day is declared by the shaman. To paraphrase, Tauren hunters wait unto a herd of kodo are near a cliff and then surprise the herd by lighting fires, jumping around from behind bushes, and just scaring them so that they become really confused. Eventually, the herd runs of the cliff and falls down below. The Tauren hunters gather the meat and have a week-long ritual of feasting, tanning and preserving.HPG 147