Talk: Varian Wrynn

Spelling

Why would we trust non-Blizzard spellings or even give mention of it? Well, it just comes to mind that if someone disputes it, it's for a reason, and it's best to explain why we choose to use this spelling as opposed to the other. If the only uses of the spelling Varien are in non-canonical sources, we should state exactly that. Otherwise, it sounds like Blizzard themselves are all confused. Schmidt talk 00:25, 9 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Varien was the spelling used in Warcraft II manual, in the Warcraft III manual and ever since it has been Varian. I've updated the discussion on this page, and added it to the list of Retcons. --Aeleas 23:24, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

I should add, the Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal manual and game had NUMEROUS spelling errors. "Ner'zhul" and "Ner'zuhl" were frequently interchanged, "Sky'ree" and "Sky'rie" were as well, and I think there's even a "Kilroggg" if you can believe it. The War 2 expansion was not handled by Blizzard, and as such, was fairly sloppy (at the very least, I think anything Metzen wrote for that game was not properly checked by an editor or QA person). So I suspect "Varien" was a mistake from the beginning. The best rule of thumb is to ignore the spellings in that game and follow whatever they went with in future titles.--WarlockSoL 15:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ouch, their copy editing on the early manuals left a lot to be desired. Kirkburn  talk  contr 11:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The in-game mission briefings were just as bad. Some had just plain bad spelling and grammar errors (ex: "From this point on, all that we gain will be our's alone." "Once these weak fools and their clans are removed, no others will dare to interfere with the dark schemes of Ner'zuhl." etc)--WarlockSoL 19:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I should probably point out that according to the credits in the Beyond the Dark Portal manual it was actually designed at Blizzard Entertainment rather than Cyberlore Studios (Cyberlore had nothing to do with the manual according to the credits).

The author of the manual for Beyond the Dark Portal was actually part of the Blizzard Staff, 'Robert Djordjevich'. He also was one of the writers for the Tides of Darkness manual. So the whole "sky'rie" issue might be his fault (or possibly meant to be the original spelling).

According to the credits, Cyberlore only was involved with programming, campaign design, PUD design, art direction, some of the 3D and 2D art, and playtesting. It also had the producer of the game.

Whereas Blizzard worked on the storyline stuff, music, sfx, character voices, and narration, 2d art direction, 3d art direction, and additional 2d and 3d art, and manual artwork, and manual design and layout. Blizzard also included the Support Services, Lead Testor, QA Assault Team, a "dunsel", and the dunsel's assistent.

Nope it really doesn't look like one can put the blame solely on Cyberlore based on the credits. On a related note Blizzard could have easily fixed thigns when making Battle.net edition (which was created strictly at Blizzard), yet they didn't.

In anycase one can look at the spelling errors in Orcs & Humans itself and see Blizzard was hardly perfect. I'm pretty sure there are some spelling issues regarding Tides of Darkness as well. There are certainly some in Warcraft III manual as well.Baggins 21:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Wrynn V and VI

What sources refer to Varian Wrynn and Anduin Wrynn as the V and VI, respectively? The RPG?--Aeleas 01:55, 27 April 2006 (EDT) Unless there is an official source that refers to him as "Varian Wrynn V", the page should be under Varian Wrynn. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aeleas (talk · contr). 10:04, 30 April 2006

Picture

I see theres a new picture on the page. Who took that? User:IbbertTheGnome/Sig 21:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Major Character?

If he ends up being the new Alliance hero in the Warcraft comic book should his "Importance Status" be moved to "Very Importent" or "One of the most importent characters in the warcraft universe" in the Warcraft Major Characters page?, because Metzen did say this new character was going to be the Alliance's answer to Thrall, and thus should his name also be added to the Alliance/Horde named characters at the bottom ? this is of coarse just speculation because no one knows at the moment who the Alliance character is in the comic book, so till then nothing should probably be done to raise his importance on wowwiki I would think Genova 22:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Although it's certainly no secret that Varian Wrynn is the new lead in the Warcraft comic, I think people are just waiting until the comic is released before they start making any major revisions to these articles. This article is probably going to need a significant rewrite and restructuring when the comic is released in a couple of weeks. He's also supposed to be showing up in WotLK, and the WoW movie is supposed to tie into the comic, so I'm guessing that they're planning on giving him a fairly massive character arc. Suzaku 10:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Varian or the character's true name won't be confirmed in the comic until later in the series. It doesn't occur in the first issue. In anycase, its interesting to note that apparently hints that Varian are still being held by the naga in Dustwallow have been reinserted as the Diplomat questline continues in patch 2.3. However that quest line still unfinished as of yet.Baggins 19:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Slightly expanded profile

I re-edited his profile and expanded it some, if I made any mistakes let me know or if I need citations I'll dig em up (I don't want to get anyone angry o.O)

I mainly did this cause I felt there was much to the character that happened that wasn't written down and could have been explained better and the fact Alliance players who play Stormwind Humans may come here to see who their Leader is and be disappointed to see a profile that's super short

so if any wants to re-edit him or anything I'm perfectly fine with that, I just wanted to help out some ^_^. Genova 06:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Well i actually think Rhonin would be the most important character in the Warcraft universe.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Magnuis2020 (talk · contr).

Varian or The Nobles!?

i am curious to know if it was Varian who refused to reward the many works for the rebuilding of Stormwind or the nobles of Stormwind. I am unsure to how much time passed between the destruction of Stormwind to its rebuilding, if Lothar ordered it rebuilt Varian would have still been a boy and wouldnt have been involved with payment issues. Either way the Defias have good reason for the kidnapping, against the King or the nobles. But then again its all revolves around Lady Prestor, removing the king from Stormwind to gain more influence and power within the Alliance escpecially the humans, but as of yet her ultimate goals remain unclear. Anyone able to help out with known information, opinions always welcome :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimilee53 (talk · contr).

I'm pretty sure it was Varian.Baggins 14:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

In all honesty Baggins when I was expanding his profile I got caught several times till the information came back to my mind, the part about Varian becoming King after the Second War and him having a son during the Post-Second War is known, but the Stonemasons becoming the Defias currently isn't really known if it was Varian or the House of Nobles so I tried my best to slightly avoid having to interpret if it was him or the Nobles

I hope Lo'Gosh turns out to be Varian and they explain why wasn't the Stonemasons paid for their work, I've always been under the assuption they just didn't have the money cause they lost everything after the First War till King Terenas raised the donations for Varian to rebuild Stormwind after it was retaken

Blizzard left Varian in the dark after launch day of the game but has finally went back to reveal more secrets so hopefully it will be resolved. Genova 16:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

According to LoC the former stonemasons are shown to have been pretty greedy too, essentially they tried to overcharge the kingdom for their work. Brann explains he, and many others helped rebuild the city without any trouble, so he doesn't understand why the former stonemasons tried to extort the kingdom like they did. They basically wanted to be payed more than what their work was actually worth, and they certainly were not the only ones that helped rebuild the city.

One of the architect's bills sent to Varian's son;

Design of eastern merchant’s

block over 1 year: 500,000 gp

Building supplies, including

but not limited to lumber, stone,

spikes, nails and tools: 300,000 gp

Labor over 6 months: 100,000 gp

Late fee: 100,000 gp

Total: 1,000,000 gp

--Baggins 20:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, this info about the Stonemasons billing can clearly change some peoples minds on the actions the House of Nobles and Varian took, being charged 1,000,000 gold and only having the money given to you by a Donation from a friend is asking for quite a bit

I feel like that info from the LoC that the Stonemasons charged 1,000,000 gold should be written in the Rise of the King part in Varian's info Baggins, is that alright with you? I'll just re-edit some of the stuff I wrote a while back If I get the Ok. Genova 06:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe Brann was simply being a unreliable narrator, he can't go around badmouthing Stormwind. WoW strongly implies that they were treated were unfairly by the house of nobles and this mistreatmen was influenced by Lady Prestor. Zarnks 05:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

First for the issue at hand. Varian Wyrnn was likely too young at the time to be at fault for the payment (or lack thereof), and Katrina Prestor was not involved with Stormwind until after the downfall of her father. So the guilty party it would seem would be the house of nobles. THe bill should definetly be added to their article. The addressment to the King is a formailty, i'm sure the Brotherhood doesnt really blame a ten year old.

As for Brann, he's been accused of being biased in the past for the simple fact that: he is. He is a member of the Alliance and thus everything written for him must be from the perspective of an Alliance member. But he is not a typical Alliance member. Brann has far more common sense than most of his allies seem to have. And the assumption he can't go around badmouthing allies isn't really accurate. Brann hardly hesitates to call someone out when they are behaving idioticly or when they are very clearly in the wrong. He's called out Stormwind in the articles on Westfall, Redridge, Duskwood, etc...And he's called out Fandral and Daelin as well. He very often compliments the Horde and accuses the Alliance of being in the wrong, stating how they should be emulating the Horde. Of course he does the also critizes the Horde but most of the time it's warranted. I really believe that Brann is as impartial as he can be, and often acts as blizzard's (as written by Whitewolf) voice of reason. He seems to be writen as impartial an actual in-world character can be (as opposed to a third party omniscent voice). This of course falls apart however when he is speaking on the subject of his own people (Bael Modan, etc...).

In the case of the Defias though i believe Brann is fully reliable. If you read the passages carefully he makes almost no judgements, towards either party. Even when he is talking about gang structure and robbery and murder he is very matter-of-fact. He presents one opinion of the Defias (making it clear it isn't nessesarly his) and also presents the Defias' viewpoint. He calls the defias exiles, and describes their banishment from Stormwind very sympatheticly, and even goes as far as making it clear he doesn't pass judgement on who is in the right. The only judgement he makes is on the matter of overcharging. This could be interpeted as a bias, but his willingness to call out the powers that be in other places gives him more credibility when he does decide to sympathize with them. I actualy think Brann could have been a little more critical and still remained fully reliable. The Defias aren't a peaceful splinter group trying to negotiate with the Alliace whom ask for our help as diplomats. Instead they've become terrorist. They murder and pillage. Was what happend to the Stonemasons justified? Absolutely not, i don't even think it for a second. But does this justify the Brotherhood current actions? Absolutely not.Warthok Talk Contribs 07:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Just want to add to that: I don't have the text in front of me but I remember reading, either in the same book, or some other RPG book, that most people (including nobles) worked on getting *their* city rebuild mostly for free, and that the Stonemasons are the only guys who actually wanted money for it, as well as obviously totally overcharging. It was probably a situation where in they had given a somewhat reasonable offer afterwards, the nobles/whatever king would have been affronted, and everyone would have thought it to be extremely bad form, but paid up.

I do remember that the bill in question IS the bill that he sends every month/year (don't remember those specifics), so with that in mind, it isn't strange that they refused. As politics go, they probably tried a few tricks to get cash, failed, and in the end was exiled, but probably not after some relatively serious issues. People don't just exile others every day.

I'm 100% with the nobles and king on *this one*. God knows how many actual affronts they have done. Still, in this case I say that the section should be rephrased to imply two things:

• Everyone but the Stonemasons worked for free (more or less)
• The Stonemasons, besides wanting money, also demanded a gruesome amount of gold above the value of their work.

Beside that, it could possibly question of exile was the best solution, but the two above facts are most important for people who know little about the Stonemasons. I remember when I tried to figure all this out myself, playing WoW.

From the public's point of view it might be that they asked for some small money, got no and exile (creating a few sympathetic opinions), but I think Stormwind's greatest problem is that they are relying on random adventurers to clear out their mess. They should have sent a minor army down there and take it out, once and for all. --Leord 16:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It was the nobles.[1]--SWM2448 18:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Dark Factions also added King Terenas to the list of people involved with pulling people together to rebuild the city. It also goes further into Varian's history with the House of NObles. Actally Varian tried to fix the problem but couldn't.

"After the guild finished the job, though, the corrupt House of Nobles refused to pay the guild for its work. King Varian was unable to fix matters because the House of Nobles held too much political power and outmaneuvered him repeatedly. Some of the more senior of the Stonemasons, including VanCleef, were offered governmental jobs if they’d just be quiet and play along. However, Edwin VanCleef was not willing to betray his workmen. He spat on the floor and walked out of the halls he'd built, vowing that he’d make the city pay one way or another. Shortly afterward, at VanCleef's urging, workers rioted in Stormwind City. Several people died, and VanCleef — and many other members of the Stonemasons' Guild — left the city for good."

This info should be included somehow.--Baggins (talk) 05:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay tell me if I am wrong. The House of Nobles refused to pay the workers. The workers rioted, and later with VanCleef they formed the Defias Brotherhood. Currently, many nobles are in league with the Defias Brotherhood. What? Also, does the Royal Stonecutters Union and/or the Royal Stonecutter's Guild have anything to do with the old Stonemasons' Guild?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 07:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A New Hero

A new hero!? Simply Varian Wrynn after he escaped from his captors... These are my two cents!!! --N'Nanz 18:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It may be Varian or it may not be. It hasn't been confirmed. However, as I understand it, patch 2.3, has continued the Missing Diplomat quest line, and is leading towards Varian being connected to Alcaz Island again. However the quest line stops before one can raid the island to find out what's being hidden there. But it seems to hint that Varian is going to end up back in the dungeon again, this time behind the naga.Baggins 18:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes but in the quest line it seems the "prisoner" escaped and only few of his ownings were found. However... it was only a bet, no? Do you accept? :p --N'Nanz 18:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure he may have escaped for a time, but this doesn't preclude the possibility that he'll get recaptuerd later on, and taken to Alcaz Island, where the quest line ends up currently. Although there is one more issue no one has thought of, the water of Southfury River flows south into Dustwallow Marsh, and over a waterfall. So its unlikely that someone who shipwrecked in Dustwallow Marsh is going to go up river, and if he somehow managed that feat it would have to be explained. Why would someone take the time to make a difficult climb up a waterfall, and work against the flow of the river to go north, when he could have just headed to Theramore.Baggins 18:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Remember he suffers of memory loss, he can't know where Theramore is. Maybe he was escaping from somethink/somebody in that direction, opposite to Theramore, maybe in that condition he was escaping from that very safer place in the region. --N'Nanz 18:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

In that condition I doubt he'd be able to climb a waterfall, let alone travel against the river current. In anycase current should have taken him to Theramore, if was anywhere near bay where that river empties into. That doesn't mean he'd know what Theramore was, but just that it would be more likely for him to end up there, since the mountains around the bay would be incredibly difficult to climb. There are other problems in that area, such as nasty sharks, threshadons, mak'krura, snapping turtles, murlocs and other wildlife. So it would be more difficult to swim up a huge bay, just to reach a waterfall so he could climb up the waterfall against the current, and work his way up river against the current in his condition.

Also Theramore is a very big city, like a population of around 10,000 people. He probably should have been able to see it in the distance. In anycase I have to ask where did the ship crash exactly? That also should be mentioned in this discussion, in trying to figure out how far he had to swim to get to Southfury River.Baggins 19:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I checked apparently the shipwreck was between Alcaz Island and Theramore and Dreadmurk. That's a considerable distance in order to swim north past Algaz Island up to Southfury River. He probably could have reached Northwatch Hold a bit easier, than the Southfury River too. If this is Varian, then it opens up alot more questions and logistical issues.Baggins 19:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Baggins you seem to think this may not be Varian, but cleary imo it is. If you read the Stranger in a Strange land outline of the comic giving a brief reading of the first comic you'll read that Broll offers up an orc meditation remedy, and the man has a brief flash of memory -- he's a child, alone in a burning and collapsing city this cleary confirms that it is Varian as the orcs burnt and destroyed Stormwind during the first war when he was only a child, Lothar then lead the exodus to Lordaeron. The human is also well trained as Rehgar mentions, more then likely trained by Lothar. i dont see why blizzard would introduce a completely new unknown human to the story when Varian has the background and potenial to be the greatest human hero and his story was never finished. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimilee53 (talk · contr).

Cleary confirms? Not quite. It is enough to have a speculation part, but unless Blizzard 100% says it, it is not confirmed. I do sort of think so too, though. The 2.3 stuff was a hint/prequel? --SWM2448 02:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I have a feeling it might turn out to be him, how else to explain the lion on his belt buckle, or the dream sequence of the city burning around him (although we do know of other burning cities)? Even still I point out certain problems Blizzard has created as far as logistics, that will need to be explained. However, we can't say for certain who it is until Blizzard states who is.Baggins 06:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO the 2.3 stuff is a prequel that will lead to how he lost his memory. But we don't know nothing until the next novel will go on press (where Lo'Gosh will take back his memories) --N'Nanz 09:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be kinda cool if it was him. Maybe in future games, books etc, he'll be like the new Lothar :) Warchiefthrall 20:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

#2

Five page preview is now avaialble at MTV: [2] Looks like Lothar during the flashback. Could lend credence to it being Wrynn, or it could somehow be the missing Turalyon, if you think about it.. Webrunner 15:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

From my point of view this more or less confirms it's Varian Wyrnn, there's little doubt the old man in the preview for #2 is Anduin Lothar and that they are escaping from Stormwind to Lordearon on the boat (also in the previous issue it shows Stormwind burning), the reason it couldn't be Turalyon is because he was 18-20 years old when he first met Lothar and that was in Lordearon. Genova 06:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Varian Wrynn?

Issue #1 depicts a town burning and the most logical choice is Stormwind followed by Stratholme but being the fact that Lo'Gosh is a small boy in the flashback and in the present a grown man and Stratholme burned only like 3 years before it has to naturally be Stormwind

Issue #2 shows Lo'Gosh as a boy with Anduin Lothar on a boat and Lothar is talking about losing a War but how things heal in time, so this confirms that it was Stormwind and they just lost the First War and are retreating to Lordearon

also the other reasons Lo'Gosh could be Varian is he grew up with Lothar, Uther the Lightbringer, Daelin Proudmoore and he was even good friends with Arthas, so if Lo'Gosh does turn out to be Varian there's no need to explain how he got to be such a great fighter

also Metzen said Lo'Gosh would become the Alliance's leader, so he would have to hold some diplomatic qualities (the Alliance is very political and wouldn't just throw the Leadership to just anyone) the Menethil family welcomed Varian Wyrnn after the First War and grew very close and the Menethil family even helped him rebuild Stormwind after the Alliance started to fall apart but Varian was one of the few who vowed to remain with the Alliance regardless of what shape it was in

when the Menethil family fell apart during the Third War the Alliance basically lost their overall leader, Stormwind naturally feels it should take up Lordearon's place and Varian certeinly is the next in-line for leadership next to Turalyon

this is just my two cents though, if anyone feels different about it they are more then welcome to speak their mind ;) Genova 06:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think issue #2 more or less confirms it's Varian. Mind you, I think that picture of Lothar is terrible. Warchiefthrall 12:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

So when Lo'Gosh's name and such is revealed and it MAY clearly state he is Varian (so the doubters will have no qualms about who he is anymore)does that mean that the Lo'Gosh and Varian page will be merged? like it may be some rough work fusing two things into one ya know. Genova 19:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they will be merged at that point. Unless of course people want it to go the route of Katrana Prestor, or Daval Prestor. Kind of a non-spoiler page.Baggins 19:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

To make it somewhat similar to those pages, I've added a spoiler warning to the speculation section.Baggins 01:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Great idea Baggins, the fact his "Speculation part" said "King Wyrnn" before was probably to big of a spoiler and needed to be more subtle and need a slight spoiler warning, there is so many hints it's Varian Wyrnn it would be more outrageous and shocking if it WASN'T him at the moment

I hope when issue #3 comes there's something big enough that it would confirm it's Varian

Baggins, are you or Ragestorm going to handle fusing or connecting the Varian and Lo'Gosh articles if it comes to it when it's revealed? cause it may need a professional re-write and may be rather rough, I would but I'm a Wowwiki newb and would probably just screw something up. Genova 00:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll do what I can but I don't actually have the comics. I've been going by second hand accounts.Baggins 00:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out Issue #3 preview came out a couple days ago http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/01/11/exclusive-a-sneak-peek-at-world-of-warcraft-issue-3

more Hints linking Lo'Gosh to Varian it would seem. Genova 04:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I just read issue 3 preview on worldofwarcraft.com, and it seems obvious to me that Lo'gosh is actually king Wrynn, specially after seeing how that defias guy refers to him as "the one we took", a reference to The Missing Diplomat questline and its continuation IMO. I find also noticeable that this preview is the first one to appear in the official WoW webpage.--Morgaur 16:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if this is also setting up a plotline in Wrath of the Lich King? We've learned of what's happening in Northrend but what of the Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. Either way this story is getting more and more intriguing. (Omega2010 21:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

It's said that Bolvar Fordragon is moving to Valgarde in Northrend, whether it's still unconfirmed, I highly doubt they're just gonna leave Anduin alone with Lady Prestor in SW. And if Varian returns to SW for WotLK, several important Alliance chain quests will have to change or be removed and replaced with others, first of all The Missing Diplomat, so it's likely that things in the Eastern Kingdoms are going to change at least to some degree. Besides that, it was said in an interview that WotLK will develop the lore for Tauren, Trolls, Gnomes, Dwarves and Humans. For Tauren it means finding the Taunka, for Trolls it could have something to do with Ice Trolls, Gnomes and Dwarves will probably uncover some secrets of their past in Ulduar, and for Humans, we know of the return of the Silver Hand, but, who knows? It could also include the "return of the King". It should also be noted that the end of the comic (12 monthly issues = november 2008) fits aproximately some speculated dates for the WotLK release.--Morgaur 13:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I'm certain that once this arc finishes we'll be having a new King in Stormwind. Warchiefthrall 11:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

My two copperpieces: Why did noone, no matter what race they met, notice -Hey, you're the guy from the goldcoins-?--Maibe 17:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

We do not know what WoW gold looks like (peons may be on copper). Also, he is dirty and in different clothes.--SWM2448 21:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Sandwichman. As far as we know, no one in Kalimdor knows how Varian Wrynn looks like, except for the defias that kidnapped him. And the people that appears in Alliance coins are more probably heroes from the past wars such as Anduin Lothar.--Morgaur 19:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

From Lands of Conflict;

Gold can take many forms. In towns near operating gold mines, gold is often in nugget or dust form and spent by weight, with every business from trading posts to blacksmiths using a balance scale to measure their customers’ payments. When taxes or trade take the raw gold to a larger city, local governments have minting operations that ease and speed trade by melting the metal and forging it into coins of standard weight. With only a few exceptions, such as the quarter-pound coins once minted in Moonbrook, gold coins typically are made three to the ounce, or roughly fifty to the pound. In the minting process, coins are always stamped with the mark of the local power, which causes problems of its own. Coins minted in Stormwind these days, for example, are marked with the face of young King Wrynn...

...untapped veins of gold are becoming more difficult to locate, and as a consequence trade in less valuable precious metals has increased. Though worth a tenth of their golden counterparts, silver pieces have become common in marketplaces, and many businesses even accept lowly copper pieces. (As silver pieces and copper pieces are usually considered too low in value to stamp during the minting process, they are the standard form of payment to workers who desire… the maximum portability in themselves and their currency.)Template:Cite

--Baggins 20:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems like Blizzard is checking to see how progressing the storyline will work with 2.4 with the blood elves by changing what NPC's say, moving NPC's and quests. Since things are going pretty well I would imagine Blizzard would have no issues putting Varian back in WotLK and changing questlines and what NPC's say. Leviathon 22:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what Morgaur said about none knowing who Varian Wrynn is, most If not all the Humans on Kalimdor are from Lordaeron and joined Jaina when she became their ruler and left for Theramore

It would make sense none would know who he is cause he's the ruler of a Kingdom no where near theirs I'd assume. Genova 03:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You did read -ToD-? I'd say they kept contact even after the second war, so, people from the northern kingdoms should know what he looks like...--Maibe 10:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I'd imagine after so many years people may forget what he looks like especially if his appearance has changed much during his captivity such as hair along with just normal aging. Leviathon 01:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Only thing I can guess is he just looks much different because of his captivity like Leviathon said, cause he fought alongside Dwarves and Humans in issue #4 and no one said "Hey, you're Varian aren't you?"

perheps the majority of people Varian met in Lordaeron are just dead from the Scourge in the Third War *shrugs shoulders*

I am curious what Blizzard plans to do with the Missing Diplomat, Onyxia chain and all the Alliance quests regarding him If they do decide to bring him back and put Bolvar in Northrend. Genova 22:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I just realized something should we change his profile some? his affiliation should be Alliance now I'd assume cause he fought alongside the Alliance in #4 and is clearly against the Horde now, and technically his current status isn't a Slave anymore he's....investigating Ashenville with Broll I'd assume and his Class should be Gladiator cause I mean he is the Gladiator Champion of Dire Maul, but that's just my 2 cents so If none agrees with me we can leave It. Genova 23:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Blizzard seemed to just continue the Missing Diplomat chain a bit to prepare for its continuation or conclusion come near or with WotLK. Leviathon 01:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that he could return for the 3.0 patch prior to the release of the expansion.--Morgaur 12:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Name

Anybody else noticed the fact that Thrall is an orc with a human name, and Lo'Gosh is a human with an orc name? Intentional? Probably. Xavius, the Satyr Lord 10:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, more interesting is that Thrall is a disparaging human name (Slave), Lo'gosh is a honorific orc name (Ghost Wolf) due to his honorable combat skills. In my opinion Since Thrall too was a honored gladiator, this explain the xenophobic attitude of Alliance and the reputation based on honor of the Horde. --N'Nanz 10:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The name "Thrall" has more to do with the attitude of a single human (Aedelas Blackmoore) than with the entire race, remember Taretha Foxton? There's an interesting story in HPG about a human knight that fought Thrall when he was still a slave, just to try his strength. When his corpse is identified between the casualties of the battle of Theramore, Thrall tells Jaina that that knight taught him about respect. The real problem with the Alliance/Horde relationship is that there always were individuals (as Blackmoore, or Garithos) that behaved as real assholes, spoiling every hope for peace.--Morgaur 19:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen a whole lot of evidence to show that people like Taretha and the knight from HPG aren't the vast minority. Of Blood and Honor pretty much shows that people of lordearon atleast, thought of orcs as animals. I wouldn't imagine the people of stormwind have much better opinions, as argueably they suffered more under the the old horde than lordearon did.

Even Jaina and the people under her command were ready to kill the horde if not for Medivh setting them straight. From what I've seen, only the very young like Teretha and that knight don't judge orcs from the start. Humans who give them a chance will usually find them alright, but humans ingeneral aren't very willing to do that when not in the face of extreme circumstances. And for some it doesn't matter, as the agitators and deserters in theramore show.Tweak the Whacked 19:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Eh, xenophobia exists on both sides. That's the reason why much of the horde and alliance still fight each other even though leaders such as Jaina, Thrall, King Wrynn were or are still trying to work toward peace between the two peoples. Yes while Lo'gosh is is an honorable name there are quite a few insults developed by the Horde towards humans as well. I've heard people cry havok about how humans have been known to call orcs "greenskins", well you know what? Orcs were calling humans "pinkskins" since they first entered the world. Insults abound on both sides. There are quite a few references in sources Horde races thinking of humans as animals as well. Its worked both ways. For every single bad Alliance member you can name, you can also name a bad Horde member.Baggins 20:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Not so strangely so either. Having a mass of green skinned "aliens" attacking, raping, killing your population will set certain thoughts in their heads, and will make it very hard to remove without any experience to show otherwise. Most individual humans will have had basically ONLY bad experience with orcs/trolls/ogres. Honour was a concept that very slowly crept back to the general population of orcs. Not to say they were not proud, but also perverted by Mannoroth. Orcs in turn will in most cases have the most memories of their time being extremely badly treated in the internment camps, and will probably hold that against humans in general. Still, in the end, even if many humans might see only evil in the horde, they do know that they now have the capacity to avoid bloodshed, and if enlightened, would also probably be able to at least have a strained conversation with an orc. Probably easier between humans and tauren, as they have no liftime supply of war between them yet. --Leord 16:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Official: it's Varian

Yup, it's him. Never have guessed, eh? :P

http://www.blizzplanet.com/news/2208/ Warchiefthrall 22:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, like it could've been anyone else. Nice find though. All we need to do now is merge Lo'Gosh with Varian Wrynn. --User:Vorbis/Sig 22:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Always figured it was Varian and its nice to see it confirmed. Still find it funny though how he looks like a Diablo II barbarian with hair with how buffed up he is :p But guess he is a perfect replacement for lost heroes such as Lothar. Leviathon 01:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No he isn't. Lothar was cool, Varian is not in anyway, shape or form. Varian is just a sad human rip off of Thrall that will never be as good as the real thing. I'm all for humans getting a decent hero but they should be creative. He has an orcish name to contrast with Thrall's human name, he was captured by orcs like Thrall was captured by humans. He learns to fight and think like an orc much like how Thrall and he will then take complete control over his faction at the end.

Whats next a Night elf Grom Hellscream or tauren Arthas. Honestly pathetic characters like this make me sad. Zarnks 03:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, he's been described as the anti-thrall. I think that's really the point that both Thrall, the leader of the Horde, and Varian, the next King of Stromwind, have similar origins. Once he becomes King again, I think the fact that both of them are similar will become a factor in what happens between the Alliance and the Horde. My two cents. Warchiefthrall 16:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Vorbis we were going to go for a page much like Daval Prestor, or Katrana Prestor in that you have the "secret identity" information given, with links to his true identity.Baggins 19:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, to answer Zarnks, I think it's not such a sad thing the development of the character. While I have to agree that the way that Varian has returned and the similarities with Thrall are quite lame, I think is just unfair to consider the character as a whole like a bad copy of Thrall. In my opinion, Blizzard wanted to make him return at some point in game, but at a point that could feel "significant" for the Alliance. The Burning Crusade already implied the return of some important past Alliance heroes, so they just decided to wait to WotLK, as this expansion shows a big advance in the new Alliance degree of implication in Azeroth's politics, with the big offensive against the Scourge. The part Blizzard went wrong is when they realized that they had to fill the gap between the original quest of the missing diplomat and the release of WotLK somehow, and just decided to make a comic to explain what has Varian been doing. For me, the sad part about all of this is that there's gonna be a lot of people that will consider Varian as a poor Alliance reflection of Thrall, because it's just what he seems to be, instead of a character with his own background and story.--Morgaur 20:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well his own background and story is quite different from Thrall and while a lot of the story is only in the comics I'd imagine we will get more with WotLK on Varian. The only real similarity is that both were found by the opposite side then used for fighting. The similarities pretty much stop there though for example it seems to me that Varian was treated much better than Thrall was. Leviathon 20:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

First off, both Varian and Thrall actually learned the majority of their fighting skills and tactics in human tutelage, and both started off learning human culture first, than orc culture last. In other words, both Thrall and Varian actually fight more like extremely skilled "humans" with unmatched fury and passion of an "orcs" heart. So in a sense you could look at them more as brothers than copies, just brothers on the opposite side of the field. Now you might think this is a dumb approach, but let me just ask one question, did you like what they did with Lothar and Orgrim? At the start, the only thing known about Doomhammer was that he was a strong, powerful, and intelligent orc with no morals. Yet, they changed that and made him into, in all reality, a complete match of what Lothar was, morals and all. This is just a continuation of what Varian (Lothar's protege) and Thrall (Doomhammer's protege) have to endure in finding themselves, like their mentors, having to fight each other when in truth they are only fighting different aspects of themselves. BaskinRidge 11:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hehe, nice, never thought of that Lothar/Orgrim retcon before. I haven't read that much of the comic, but I think the main problem any new "main hero" of the Alliance would have is the massive amount of lore and info behind Thrall. None of the story arcs of the entire WoW universe are especially unique anyway. There needs to be some equally massive lore behind Lo'Gosh (cool if he would keep that name) to put them on par, but I don't think the lore lacks any in this case --Leord 16:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

New plot

Is there a reason the spoilers for the comic are the subject of the introduction? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I've edited the introduction section to be slightly more concise, but I've left the spoilers tere. I also edited the section which was meant to detail the comic's story, but I've completed only till the point where he is proclaimed Lo'Gosh. I'll do the rest tomorrow, or someone else could fill it up. Anuragsahay 14:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

That last paragraph in the Lo'gosh section definitely needs rewritten to not be fragment sentence after fragment. Leviathon 19:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Image

I'm debating whether to replace the image of Varian as King of Stormwind with the more lifelike - and more recent - Samwise image of him as Lo'Gosh; though I'm aware that there are several problematic factors in doing so. Thoughts? --User:Vorbis/Sig 17:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the image should be replaced as it seems clearly outdated now, the problem is which image use as a substitute. I would use Jim Lee's drawing before one of Samwise, however it should be just a temporary measure, as all the Lo'Gosh part in Varian's story is going to be somehow anecdotic as soon as he returns to his throne. Just an opinion.--Morgaur 17:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit: I've reconsidered. There's one Jim Lee image I really like. I entirely agree that it will be a temporary measure as I doubt Varian will continue with such a style of dress as King of Stormwind. ^^ --User:Vorbis/Sig 20:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I personally prefer samwise art. Its more detailed. The current artwork in the infobox looks more abstract and comic book like.Baggins (talk) 16:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Character Importance

Should his name be added to the Past and Present Warcraft Universe characters that some have at the bottom of their pages? Blizzard clearly wants to make him very important and he has an entire series revolving around himself

but this may also be said about Rhonin since he has quite a bit of importance especially in Northrend but I think Varian will have more importance in the end. Genova 20:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I definitely think he should be on the table. Same goes for Rhonin Warchiefthrall 20:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Going to add both. Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Added Book 4

I checked Varian's profile a couple times and Book #4 Balancing The Scales wasn't on there, and the previous entry in book #3 had him falling from Sharptalon which kind of leaves people who read his profile hanging wondering what happens to him so I went ahead and wrote a summery for book #4 If that's alright, sorry If It's too long, has bad spelling or anything.

I'll do a quick summery of Book 5 If that's alright with everyone unless someone else wants to, cause Book 6 comes out next week which has Jaina finally find Varian and tells him who he is and I'm sure people would love to know what happens in It. Genova 04:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Wind of Change

Do you guys remember my two cents about the new hero!? Now it has been announced (it's better to say "it has been discovered") that Lo'gosh is Varian etc etc... Well I dunno, "I sense something I miss!" we are only at issue #6 of twelve and we already know the solution of the mistery? It seems like blizz would have us to suspect, discuss, theorize about who this misterious guy is, only to surprise everybody at the end that we were wrong, that this guy is a fictional character create only to daze and confuse everybody: both readers and comic book character too. My theory? What if Lo'gosh is a powerful warrior (but definitely not Varian Wrynn) manipulated by the Blacks, the Syndicate and Nagas only to further expand their control over Stormwind, the Alliance and eventually the horde? These are my ten cents!!! --N'Nanz 23:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"And back in Stormwind, Prince Anduin suspects all is not as it seems with his father, King Varian." I don't know exactly what this refers to, but its on the preview of issue 9. It seems as if Blizzard is playing with the possibility that Lo'gosh is NOT Varian. Time will tell, I guess. Maybe he is Varian, but changed by dark magic somehow, to act as some kind of "sleeping agent" of the Black Dragonflight. Oh, well, welcome to conspiracy theories :-P --Morgaur 17:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh we can get as ridiculous as we'd like, like saying something like "Obviously Lo'Gosh is Daval Prestor!" Weir (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

How far "anti-Thrall" is he?

There is a question - if he was described as "anti-Thrall" is it possible for him to become evil and draw humans to it? Thrall had snapped Orc out of demonic slavery and made them good beings, restored back to their peaceful roots. Is it possible that Varian would make humans evil, converting most of them to something like "felhumans", thus servitors of Burning Legion? Let no fan of Lo'Gosh take it personal, just some of my numerous speculations. --Shargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 17:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Anti means "instead of" not "against". Thats why there's a difference between antiheroes and villians. He's not supposed to be an "evil Thrall"(that title probably belongs to Arthas), he's just to the humans what Thrall is to the orcs.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 17:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

It's one point of view. I don't think it was ever explained clearly enough what this "anti" means in this case, we shall see. I'm just asking for opinions. --Shargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 18:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the point of his character was to replace the allaince heroes who became supervillains, I doubt they'll make him a particularly evil character. My two cents.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The explanation by Metzen can be found here Essentially what Metzen was saying in that interview (and I paraphrase his own comments) is that Alliance has become complacent. He says that there are few heroes left that know the dangers that Horde could pose, and those think that those evil deeds are in the past. Secondly he brings up the the idea that thrall maybe more or less holding the orcs together. He brings up the hypothetical scenario, that if Thrall wasn't leading the orcs they might disentegrate back into the evil ways of First and Second war. Metzen is saying he is a messiah character more or less. Varian on the other hand is someone who has been enslaved by the horde sees the corruption from underneath and discovers that they still pose a threat in modern times. He could be a very dangerous adversary to the Horde, since he could be very charismatic and convince the Alliance to break the treaty.Baggins (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Eman's comment has earned the "Shroob Award" for showing cluelessness as to what was actually being discussed here.

I disagree Baggins, that theory about Thrall holding the orcs together is from Brann Bronzebeard, who isn't particularly unbiased. Many quests NPCs also despise the orcs who go back to the ways of the First and Second Wars, like Nazgrel and Eitrigg. Also, the Hero of the Mag'har quest chain, implies that the orcs weren't always the monsters they were in Warcraft 1 and 2. Also, Grom Hellscream, the person who got the orcs into their bloodlust, also was the one who got them out of it by killing Mannoroth. You should try reading on the Horde's lore a bit more, cause your posts seem rather biased in my eyes. Eman91 00:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)Eman91

Eman? What are you talking about I was referring to the idea from Metzen(this is a paraphrase of his comments in the real world), see above link to his comments. It has nothing to do with Brann Bronzebeard (unless of course you argue that Metzen is Brann)... Please get a clue...and you won't look mindlessly stupid. If your going to come into a discussion please be sure to check the context of the comment, and what is being sourced.Baggins (talk) 00:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Baggins is right Eman, Metzen mentioned the Messiah comment. He put out a question in whether the orcs really bought into all the peace stuff, or was it just the magnitude of Thrall's presence that kept them from reverting. Oh and before you accuse others of having biased views and not knowing the lore, you should look at yourself first. While the orcs weren't evil at the beginning, it does show in the books their love of the kill. Only a select few orcs didn't want to drink from the chalice while most were quite willing to. Certain orcs have even called themselves creatures of war, this doesn't make them evil, but it does make them very susceptible to evil acts. This is why Metzen brought forth that question, could the orcs keep to peaceful ways without Thrall. BaskinRidge (talk) 01:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

i just found out that apparently "anti" actuallys means "against" check this out http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anti.

Sign your posts. Well it also sort of means "opposite of", an anti-hero is someone that doesn't show very heroic tendencies.Baggins (talk) 04:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Varian Found again.

I have found Varian just now and guess what? he's still on Alcaz Island, he just got a lot harder to find I will try to post a Screenshot of him asap. I was rather looking for something called anti-hero when they referenced anti-thrall instead of being a villain of some sorts.

31 May 2008 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eliteleader (talk · contr).

Say what?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 01:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Revamping Rise as King

It was recently revealed in issue #8 that the House of Nobles was the ones who didn't pay the Defias enough during their rebuilding of Stormwind and the reason they left in exile was because they riotted and killed Varian's Wife by accident(Edwin Vancleff was one of the first who fled after the murder)

I'm going to revamp Rise as a King a little because currently we have it to where we're unsure what went down. Blue Ranger (talk) 00:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

If you bring Baros Alexston  [An Unsent Letter], he explains that it was the nobles who refused to pay. That's been in the game at least since I started playing March. Tiraline (talk) 19:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Point of note the nobles thing is pretty old it can be found in game but also in the RPG as well, I think Lands of Conflict even mentioned it to a degree. Dark Factions mentions the House of Nobles info too, with a bit more info on Varian Wrynn's involvement between Defias and House of Nobles.Baggins (talk) 20:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Skipped a book

Not sure if this matters but we skipped issue #7 and jumped into "The Return" in issue #8, I think we can leave it like this if everyone wants because nothing really happened in issue #7 except Varian fighting the naga and getting scarred and Valeera starting to give in to magical corruption. Blue Ranger (talk) 01:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey, the King's Back!

As of the current beta build, Varian is in Stormwind Keep, with Anduin standing at his side. Didn't see Valeera or Broll - or Fordragon or Lady Prestor, either. Wonder how this affects the Onyxia chain? --Joshmaul (talk) 19:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

We'll just have to wait and see. Btw, do you know if his hairstyle is one of the new hairstyles for humans or not? Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 19:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

It is. I believe it's the "foxtails" hairdo. --Joshmaul (talk) 01:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Cool. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 02:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I am rather curious how much is going to need to be reworked on Wowwiki to make way for this big change. I mean having Hemit Nesingwary moved and giving his spot away was one thing....altering an entire Faction and quests is another, but I guess this was bound to happen sooner or later.

Wonder if this means there's going to be spring cleaning and we'll be throwing alot of articles in the Deleted section Blue Ranger (talk) 05:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I saw him too, and not trying to start a discussion, but I hope they do his look right. I've always liked major characters appearing close to what they've looked like in whatever previous outlet we've seen them in. For instance with Thrall even though its an old model he has his unique blue eyes and an armor set that closely resembles his look in Warcraft 3. Whatever kingly armor and weapon set Varian uses as king in the comic I want to see something close in WoW. If I could chose the look it would be something similar to his lion armor statue with his large orc blades wearing Lothar's old belt thats shown in game, if thats what they do in the comics of course. Otherwise whatever it is in the comics it needs to be close to it. BaskinRidge (talk) 06:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you consider that as looking like him in the comics? If not, sorry to disappoint <_<. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

[3] read forums sometimes... --N'Nanz (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I never said it was permanent, did I? Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 01:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Varian declares war on the Horde?

Its been mentioned that at the end of the Varimathras questline Varian declares war on the horde? Any details? This might be part of the whole "anti-Thrall" idea Metzen discussed back when Lo'Gosh was first mentioned. I paraphrase Metzen, that the Alliance has become complacent, and that the new Alliance leader would see the Horde for the threat they might be able to pose, and become a formidible opponent against them.Baggins (talk) 04:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The Alliance Quest chain(battle for the Undercity) is already in the wiki. But this makes no sense at all. If Metzen declares Wrynn's view to be the right one of the Horde, they must change most of the quests to reflect that the Horde is evil. They must change the Tauren then. It makes no sense. I played Horde for years, I must have misunderstood the whole thing about the shamanistic and wise Western Horde. --Afaslizo (talk) 08:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The only thing the Horde did wrong was the fact Thrall had trusted the renegade members before they were renegades, they weren't the ones being evil here. Varian is the one who goes on a whiney, rambling, rage and tries to attack Thrall. It doesn't make much sense though, for whatever reason this isn't the same Varian that we saw in the comics, its way to much out of character for him. Either Blizzard decided not to use his character as in the comic, or theres something we haven't seen yet. Heya man, didn't realize you were Warchiefthrall, though I should of guessed with that cool pic you have of him. I'm surprised how many people don't know much about Varian's character, most seem to think this was how he always was LOL BaskinRidge (talk) 08:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I think their is a missing piece of the puzzle here. The Varian in the comics seems completely different from the one here. Need to wait and see. P.S Hey Baskin (Dark Avenger from SoL!) Warchiefthrall (talk) 08:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Its only beta, they might give the role to someone who fits it better Zarnks (talk) 09:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I see the quest The Battle for the Undercity as a attempt by Blizzard to give Varian the same relevance as Thrall: the warchief charged heroes of the Horde (Rexxar, Rokhan, Chen) to enter Theramore and slay the most dangerous enemy of the Horde within the Alliance (Daelin Proudmoore). Varian in the above quest charges heroes of the Alliance (palyers along with Jaina) to enter the undercity and slay the most dangerous enemy of the Alliance within the Horde (Varimathras and Putress). In Undercity the king is enraged, I think his rage will end back in Stormwind. (Should somebody give him some Diazepam!? :D --N'Nanz (talk) 09:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Simple rage is one thing, but the way he acts and the things he says are strange. He is being portrayed like he was always a racist, unstable, and vengeful character. In the comics he never exhibited such traits on any level. Varian was always calm through situations, even when he found out his wife was murdered and his son was in trouble. When he meets the defias, the people responsible for those things including kidnapping him, he tries talking with them. He was the one who mentioned nobody should be trusted implicitly based on race. Also apparently he hated the arenas yet said himself in the comic at one point that he'd rather remain a simple gladiator? I could go into much more detail but I'd hate to do it here. Beta Varian doesn't act anything like Comic Varian, at least for the moment. This would be like seeing Thrall in WC III all noble and then seeing a psychopath version in WoW with no explanation. BaskinRidge (talk) 10:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no treat on the horde, they're trying to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past. But there are a lot of new mistakes in choosing their allieds, especially when it comes about the forsaken, this is a try to fix the damn things they were doing (what? new plaguethat will kill anything alive and transform into forsaken? even the horde is not safe!)

Anyway, when i readed the comics i thought he would be the one to understand the other side and make peace with the horde but then bang! BTW am i the only one who thinks he's acting just like arthas when he was still a paladin? but this time jaina did something, but still, he's acting just like him, revange is all that matters even when thrall explained that they didn't do anything Azahel (talk) 11:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here is link and most of Metzen's comments from his his comments made about the comics, and the direction of Thrall and Lo'Gosh would eventually go in the series as originally planned, from paraphrase on Talk:Thrall#Interesting comments by Metzen;

He discussed how he personally views orcs as noble, and loves the theme, but most people at Blizzard view their orcs as evil gankers, and bad asses. They are not wishy washy, poetry readers. He sees Thrall as a messiah character, to find racial identity and their powers again, so they don't have to be monsters. He then said there is a need for an anti-thrall character, a human character, someone that can perceive them for the threat they could be. He then brought up an interesting scenario; What if Thrall didn't exist? He thinks it would be catastrophic. Does all the orcs really by into all this peace and stuff? ...or is it just the power of Thrall, his magnitude, and the faith of him as a leader that keep them all civil. But if anything were to happen to Thrall, heaven forbid, it could be horrific. He then said its something that makes him lay awake at night and go "Ya!!". It could be pretty rad. He knows most people see orcs as "evil" he wants to account for the people who enjoy orcs of that type as well. He has to find balance between both views, allowing it to be viewed from many pov, as being pro-horde, pro-alliance or neither depending on the individual reading it, creating a kind of balance.-Metzen[4]

--Baggins (talk) 12:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Something just gives me the feeling this is the fake Varian from the comics. Perhaps Varian might not get to his throne just yet? Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 12:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I find very interesting the idead of Azahel about the intervention of Jaina. It seems some kind of redemption because she didn't stop Arthas in his insanity. --N'Nanz (talk) 12:40, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems more than probable. Also, note that Jaina seems highly disturbed by the turn of events, also. It is she who stops him. Xavius, the Satyr Lord 12:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

We go from the comic version of Varian that shows a calm, cunning, intelligent, non racist fearsome fighter who could have had a rising distrust in the Horde with these events to a beta version of Varian that shows a whiny, rambling, vengeful, racist, warmongering wanna be scarlet crusader who actually taunts a dead corpse. If I was Jaina i'd be quite disturbed too BaskinRidge (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, he's really acting like Arthas now, full of hatred and seeking revange... There's something fishy on it Azahel (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is it that I'm apparently the only one that thinks this is the fake Varian from the comics, and not Lo'Gosh? Am I missing something? Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 17:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Does someone have a transcript of the conversation from the game?Baggins (talk) 18:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

As I said, it is the most probable that the racist zealot Varian is the imposter. And for a transcript, the page for the quest has one. Xavius, the Satyr Lord 18:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Well the idea that this might be the imposter doesn't quite fit, exactly, in that from the transcript of the battle, we learn this Varian claims to have lived with the orcs, and learned their culture, their language, and their secrets. This is essentially the kind of stuff Metzen said about Lo'Gosh in the above interview, if you haven't yet listened to it I suggest you do (don't take my word for what he said, listen to his own words). From what little I know of the imposter, the imposter never claimed to be enslaved by the Horde (not to mention that information wouldn't become common knowledge at least until after the events of the comic). Also we pretty much know ahead of time the events of the comics. The events of learning about Lady Katrana, the black dragonflight's involvements in Blackrock Mountain, and Varian returning to Stormwind are already taking place in the comics. Those events have to have already occured for Bolvar to have moved to Northrend and Katrana to be gone as they are in the expansion.Baggins (talk) 18:37, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Quest is The Battle for the Undercity. I don't think the actual Varian is the imposter, more that with Baggins (he should claim about his slavery only to fit the role if he is the imposter, Broll and Valeera are there too) I agree with Jaina (read her last few sentences of Quest:Herald of War) about his rage. --N'Nanz (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

To assume that this Varian is the imposter, and knows about Lo'Gosh's past (using his nick to seperate the two at the moment), enough that its common knowledge to both Jaina (who only learned of it through the real Lo'Gosh) and the Alliance troops with him would be to to assume he fails when Broll, Valeera and him go to confront him in the upcoming comic, and that Lo'Gosh was somehow recaptured, and imprisoned again, and they were somehow brainwashed (so as they don't remember that he was captured again), or were somehow seperated from him when the encounter takes place (so they don't witness the events). Of course the latter would beg the question, of wouldn't Broll and Valeera ask about the whereabouts of the second Varian? Cause if the confrontation was a duel, one would likely end up dead, and a body would be left behind (this would be bad for anyone who likes Lo'Gosh). But if the body doesn't exist, then Broll and Valeera it would be evidence that something isn't quite right. If they aren't both dead, you'd get that classic, "He's the imposter, no he is" conversation. If we assume Broll and Valeera are somehow confused, and choose the wrong imposter, then that would mean Lo'gosh goes to prison. But imposters usually get the death setence... Which also wouldn't bode well for Lo'Gosh fans.Baggins (talk) 19:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Baggins, I was well misunderstood between you wrote first time "him" and second time "Lo'Gosh"!!! :Pp --N'Nanz (talk) 19:11, 20 September 2008

Well, I get from your original post you were agreeing with me. But you gave a possiblity that if it was the imposter, a reason why he would be making the claims he did. I was just commenting on how that doesn't quite work. However, I hope I wasn't being confusing when I was switching between he and him and the Varians and the term Lo'Gosh, trying sort out two characters that share the same name, and sorta represent the "same character", can be confusing.Baggins (talk) 19:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Well no one brought it up but here is Varian Wrynn's comments from the Horde's quest lines. Quest:The Battle For The Undercity (Horde). This combined with Jaina's explanation for his rage makes alot more sense as to why it is the real Varian. An imposter would not likely be using these for his reasons for starting the war, as they are intimate knowledge of "Lo'Gosh".

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.

King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.

King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.

King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!

People will say things they wouldn't normally say, due to frustration, anger, and the loss of a loved one. -Baggins (talk) 19:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree. Before when I told about Broll and Valeera I was meant that if after a duel with the impostor Lo'Gosh felt and the impostor came out telling "ehy, I'm the winner, I'm Lo'Gosh" it's a too much because Broll and Valeera should surely recognize him, even Broll and Valeera being replaced/bran washed it's too much. Rage, for good!!! --N'Nanz (talk) 21:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd wait till this goes live, rather then put the info up now. Zarnks (talk) 21:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Bet you anything it turns out Varian is being possessed by the Lich King. Just wait and see. Just kidding :P But in all seriousness I do think something very important is missing. It could have something to do with the imposter, but I doubt it, as I don't think they'd go for a clone saga. There's more to it than meets the eye that's for sure. It will be interesting to see how it's resolved too. I don't think there will be another war any time soon, but it must be something pretty big to stop it at this stage.

And apologies in advance to Ragestorm, as I know this isn't a forum. But c'mon it's hard to resist when something like this comes up :P Warchiefthrall (talk) 21:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

<hovers ominously>--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Tbh Broll and Valeera would tell the real Varian from the imposter, in the comic the Varian they know has two scars on his face where as the imposter doesnt, a very distinguised feature imo. Also why would this Imposter grieve for the loss of Bolvar? to quote from the quest 'Reborn from the ashes' after you collect Bolvars' shield and deliver to King Wrynn the quest texts says 'King Wrynn brushes away a tear' why would someone who had just met Bolvar cry for him? I believe the Varian we are seeing in the beta is him bit theres somethign more sinister at work. When he first visited Theramore in the comic Jaina states that there is a dark magic about him, maybe that dark magic still hangs over him now he is in game and some quests relieve him of this taint or something along the lines of Valnar (talk) 00:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Another important proof about him being Lo'Gosh? Katrana no longer lurks in Stormwind!!! --N'Nanz (talk) 09:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Blizzplanet has a good movie about the whole quest seen by a Horde point of view (blood elf paladin) --N'Nanz (talk) 13:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, that's it, this is the officialy non-editorial warning. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Uhm well.. Varian were a good guy in the comics until his "friends" got hurt, and when that happend he slaughtered the other gladitators without even thinkin (When they didn't even be in the ARENA!) Same thing happend here. Fordragon was a as a brother to Varian and when he got killed he most likely didn't care (Like the example I gave in the first sentence), so... Well, Blizz didn't change him to much. Ofel 09:28, 26 September 2008 (EU)

I have given the non-editorial warning, Ofel. This means that the discussion will cease, as non-editorial discussions are frowned upon. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The "Daelin Proudmoore" of WoW?

I've noticed at how he seems to view the Horde in some of his quests, especially in the Battle for Undercity, that he behaves a lot like Daelin Proudmore did in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne. And Jaina, interestingly, has to step in and put a stop to it, like she did with Daelin. Unfortunately, it looks like Varian actually managed to do what Daelin failed to do, break the peace treaty between the Alliance and the Horde. Eman91 18:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)Eman91

There was never a peace treaty to break. Jaina allied with the Horde to beat back the Burning Legion at Mt. Hyjal, but she is not the Alliance, and the Alliance as a whole has never been truly at peace with the Horde. At best, the last several years have been a cold war/stalemate type situation. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

And can you really blame them? The way the Undercity has been behaving int he Eastern Kingdoms, I too would rather defend myself then to let inocent be kidnapped by the Apothecaries or driven from my homelands of Arathi because of Varimathras' defilers. What happens in Alterac Valley is a sad turn of events of two races misunderstanding eachother. Drek Thar thought it would solve it by one swift brutal strike leaving them in peace, as he thought the Alliance would then know he has teeth. But the Dwarves don't run from a fight, and are very stuborn and capable/honourable warriors so they also in. (Furthermore the Khargath Expidition Force in Dwarven lands probably also contributed to the fact that they don't retreat, but only a minor one)

Either that or they where framed by a third group who blamed it on the Frostwolf in which the Dwarves attacked the wrong people, since I still find it really wierd that that wise old Orc Drek'Thar would order an attack and kill a group of explorers who have ties to Alterac (The Stormpike Dwarves have always lived in the mountains and valleys of Alterac, so it was a matter of time before they discovered eachother). I loved Drek Thar in WC3, I could barely forgive Blizz for making him like this when AV was 4 hours (atleast I got a 4 hour slaughter for it ;)).

But all with all, I can see why Varian, after seeing what the Forsaken have been upto, reports of kidnappings and attacks, the unleashing of the Dark Irons and probably alot more would be, agitated. Ontop of that the killing of Bolvar which wasnt the Horde fault, was just the final little push to push him over that edge. BTW I don't say he is a good or a bad man, I just say I can understand what made him come to this decision, I don't agree with it. But Hell I wish My Orc's Warchief would be a bit more.. you know like this... all the things he says in WOTLK sounds like a propper Orc. A little less of Varian's War mongering, and more of Varian's way of talking firmly and with honour, and Blizzard will have me love Thrall again like I did in WC3 :D.--Dehnus (talk) 09:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with what they're making Varian into... Though oddly, I consider that perhaps they have some plan for a later quest chain... Perhaps one where the misunderstanding could be rectified. Perhaps descend back into the former Cold War/Zero Sum Game the Alliance and Horde have been engaged in the last few years. You gotta believe that folks like The Argent Dawn/Crusade, as well as the Naaru would NOT be happy about the events transpiring. Hopefully we hear of some backlash against Varian in the near future. Instead of a united effort, what sounds like it will amount to little more than a race to see who can beat Arthas/Ner'zul first. Note that he mentions to return to Northrend and defeat the Scourge, not to march on Orgrimmar. The chances for an interesting Redemption/Reconciliation story arc are boundless though. Either way, At this point(as a hardliner Alliance player I might add), I'd pick up and join the Argent Crusade full time, citing the (As I see it) United victories against Illidan and his cronies, and against Kael'Thas and Kil'Jaeden at Quel'Danas. As much as I'd like to count Mt. Hyjal, that was all Jaina's show. Of course, I admire Thrall as a result of these events... And it's interesting to see the Greenskins not all that keen on fighting a war for once. This will be a War of Tears. A War borne of, and ending in, Tragedy.--ArthosRa, (talk) 1:10AM, 26 October 2008 (PST)

Ok, this is how I feel and my two cents so don't bash me or anything if I interpret something or say something out of place :) I just wanted to say that Daelin and Varian may seem alot alike wanting to have war with the Horde and all but they are two very different people and two very different scenarios. Daelin hates the Horde...period....he views them as monsters that must be eradicated and wants nothing more then to slaughter orcs to ensure mankinds survival.

Varian lost his entire kingdom, father, guardian and mentor (Lothar)and watch as the first and second war play out with the old horde. after the new Horde gets together he agreed to attend the meeting with Jaina and Thrall to discuss peace despite his previous affairs with the Old Horde (Daelin didn't care about peace after his ordeals and just wanted to kill the orcs). After being enslaved by the Horde for months he still showed respect to the Horde races without descremination (like Hammul Runetotem and Valeera)

After returning as King he creates the Valiance Expedition to cope with the Horde to end the Lich King, but Putress betrays them and proclaims the Forsaken will reign surpreme after Bolvar dies. In retribution he attacks and kills Putress which is justifyble but after killing him he looks around and sees all the dead and mutilated corpses of Alliance the Forsaken have been experimenting on for years and kinda thinks "This is how it is huh? despite our two wars against each other the Alliance still reached out and shook the Horde's hand agreeing to a truce...and secretly behind our backs Sylvanas and the Horde have been mass-producing a means to kill us for years...they can't be changed" and after confronting Thrall that's when he declares war on the Horde.

Although I digress. It wasn't the Horde's fault Bolvar died as it was Varimathras and his coup and Varian did overreact but if someone killed my brother I wouldn't know how I'd react ````

Comics

Do we really need to have in-depth summaries of each individual issue? Some of them are as long or longer as entire bio sections; surely that would be better suited to pages on the issues themselves, with the Comics section being condensed to an overall summary. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

This summary is better than the ones on the main comic pages. It is like the summary of Terror of the Tides being mostly on Maiev Shadowsong.--SWM2448 00:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't mean it should stay. In my opinion, the place for those summaries is on the issue articles, while for this article a simple overarching view would be more appropriate. (P.S. hi DTZ) --Flyspeck (talk) 00:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --N'Nanz (talk) 09:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)