Old discussion Edit
The Frostwolf orcs are not invading,they found the hidden empty valley during the first war. And there was no mention of dwarves in alterac Valley in lord of the clans,which is more official source of lore then the rpg book. Angry ogre
"which is more official source of lore then the rpg book."
How often is the Rpg book reference in World of Warcraft almost never. How often is lord of the clans referenced,all the time. Anyway saying orcs are invading the area is certainly a less then neutral point of view and should be changed.,for the Frostwolf orcs never described having to fight dwarves to get the valley. Angry ogre
- The RPG is refrenced in the World of Warcraft alot actually. But most people don't have access to the RPG to know it... In the end its Chris Metzen's words and the words of Blizzard that mean more than fans interpretations of what they think the hiearchy of sources should be.
- Also WoW is not a very neutral source of information. The opinions are tainted depending on what race you play in game. The horde will color the stories with their views, and the alliance with theirs. So please don't try to use it as a "neutral" source it isn't.
- Plus the problem is not the valley its the frostwolves that leave the valley to attack other sections of Alterac Mountains were the Dwarves live. They have had to retaliate in defense. So you are showing a one sided view of the orcs, trying to make them innocent ones, as if they have no blaim. That is hardly a neutral stance on your part.Baggins 22:33, 1 January 2007 (EST)
- Wtf? When have the Frostwolves ever attack other valleys? From what I know, they've wanted to escape conflict with the Alliance as long as possible, and they stayed in their own valley. Drek'thar even mentions that he returned to it after the founding of Durotar and Daelin's attacks because he and the Frostwolves have come to view it as home. I am not saying the orcs have no blame, I am saying that when the Stormpike dwarves came, they angered the spirits of the valley by digging through the lands and it provoked the orcs. The dwarves didn't attack first, but they weren't very responsible, and so they came of as provokative. The Frostwolves are honorable people who try to make a shamanistic living, the Stormpikes are merely looking for ancient relics and to take the resources of the valley for Ironforge. This doesn't make either side bad or evil, it just makes them prone to conflicts. The orcs can be angered easily by those who disrespect the spirits, the dwarves are a bit to proud for their own good. The fact that the Explorers' League, another mostly dwarven expedition, has already forced the tauren of their lands in south Barrens and are now allying themselves with Stormpike to find more treasures probably isn't making the Alliance seem much better in the eyes of the Horde. The Frostwolves are merely defending their home, the Stormpikes are defending their operations center. While I would side with the Frostwolves in the conflict since I believe that the land is rightfully theirs, I can see why the Stormpikes would be interested in the Valley. Eman91 18:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Eman91
The Dwarves also attacking the parts of the valley where the orcs live. Anyway the Frostwolves did not just start attacking the Stormpike for no reason,what happened was that their evacuators angered the spirits in the valley,and the Frostwolves slaughtered the evacuators for angering spirits. Then the Dwarves attacked the orcs. thats how the conflict got started,the orcs didn't just attack the stormpike for no reason. The War in Alterac is due to immense cultural differences, not because the orcs attacked for no reason or vice a versa. Angry ogre
- As for ingame in WOW, the storylines for both have both sides being the agressors over Alterac Valley, and both sides have issues. According to Alliance side, the alterac dwarves were at first leaving the orcs alone during their mining projects, and it was the frostwolves that first attacked them.
- Whereas the horde side claims that the dwarves were the first to attack, or saw the mining operations as an affront to them.
- If you only take one side you fail at being neutral. Instead come off looking pro-horde.Baggins 22:33, 1 January 2007 (EST)
"evacuators angered the spirits in the valley,and the Frostwolves slaughtered the evacuators for angering spirits"
Ahh yes, a religious debate... So because Dwarves supposedly angered spirits that they would not personally believe in that makes it valid for the Orcs to declare war on the dwarves? Ya, that's really neutral stance on your part... Sorry, but that's not very credible... Relgious wars never are neutral or have justification in Wow or on Earth...Baggins
Like I said its a war of culture,not good and evil. And its shown that the spirits of the valley are real where do you think shamans get their power. Its shown in Lord of the clans that the spirits of Alterac valley are very real. Not believing in the spirits is like not believeing ancients or whisps. And who started the war is a subject with no real answer Angry ogre
- Jihad means religious war, always has always will. There is never justifcaiton for religions wars. It is part of the english dictionary... I don't believe in censorship of languages. That is far more offensive.
- You have admited that it was the horde that attacked first, that makes them the agressors in the first place. Dwarves do not believe in spirits, they do not not know they exist. The fact that the spirits were real or not is not a reason to declare a religious war on the Dwarves.
- The bigenders of lilliput declared war on littlenders of Lilliput just because they believed that their view on how to eat an egg was more valid. But the fact was different people have different beliefs its never a reason to attack someone else just because they view something different. Yes that is a famous satire on silly ness of declaring war based on beliefs.
- Infact the Horde should have come to the dwarves at first and discussed things with them, instead of attacking them because they were offended.
- So yes you have been siding with the Horde trying to justify them, make the alliance look bad. Hardly neutral... As far as the dwarves know they were just attacked in their ancestral home (to the stormpike clan the mountains have been their ancestral home). They still don't even know the reason why they were attacked. Now they are just defending themselves. But you overlook that fact and try to make the alliance look like agressors again that's not neutral. Baggins
How am I blaming the dwarves? All I said was how the conflict started. Unlike your biased article,which clearly demonizes the orcs,I never said the dwarves were invader or that they were bad. And the Frostwolves probably tried to discuss it with the dwarves However we don't know the answer. and the Frostwolves are also defending themselves just like the dwarves. Like I was saying there is no good guy or bad guy,just misunderstandings and cultural differences. And your one to talk about me being biased,the way your talking is making it seem the frostwolves worship the burning legion. Also anyone else see similarties between this conflict and the one in Ashenvale cept with the roles reversed Angry ogre
- You stated that the dwarves attacked the horde, and stated that hte orcs were defending themselves. Clearly horde bias on your part. Please stop trying to twist the words from Blizzard. The truth is that it goes much deeper than that, and dwarves have a longer history in the mountains than the orcs did. Orcs only came there in the last 100 years. But the truth is it has been stated officilaly that the orcs attacked first. That has nothing to do with neutrality that is a fact. Any removal of that information or trying to put the dwarves in further bad light is not neutral in the slightest.
- Addition of information, further explanation of information sure that's fine, but removal of information is not tolerated. PLlus the way you altered things you made the dwarves look like they started it in the first place, that is not neutral stance at all. Plus information from official sources shouldn't be altered just because you wish for something to be worded another way.
- Also true NPV as defined by wikipedia etiquette rules, is stating facts first(I.E. quotes and paraphrases deriving information from official sources), and correctly cited. Changing cited information to suit ones own views is also not good wiki ettiqute. Making up stuff to fill in gaps and stating said things is also against wiki ettiquite.
- All opinions are second, as opinions are what is not neutral.Baggins
Where the hell did I say the Dwarves attacked first,I said the dwarves inadverdently sparked the conflict but I did not say they attacked first. And yes the Dwarves where in the mountains first but not Alterac valley. Angry ogre
I have to agree with Angry Ogre that the orcs tried to negociate with the dwarfs and that the dwarfs started.....it happened before in Bael Modan didn' it? and anyway they were desecrating the land as well (which is why the spirits were offended)and that's why the orcs attacked first .....so even if the dwarfs didn't know about the spirits they should have stoped desecrating the land or you would want the orcs to try repairing the damage done everytime the land is desecrated?Anyway I'm nor saying the dwarfs are evil I'm saying they are too proud for their own good and with a quick temper(as u can see in the quests)how would u want the orcs to react ?And I agree again with Angry Ogre that Alterac weren't the dwarfs home or if it was it no longer is since in Lord of the Clans it doesn't mention dwarfs.I may be wrong in some points but that's that .PS:You are one stuborn hobbit Baggins (Marakanis 14:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC))
Removal amd twisting of informationEdit
When you change the official terminology, that has been cited used by Blizzard such as the term "defense" by changing it to "fight" you have not only twisted Blizzards own words you have presented false information. That goes against all rules surround wikipedia etiquette, and is a form of vandalism. Fight is also a non-neutral term, it is tied to "offense", it is a term of agression.
Defense is and always be a neutral term, the act of defending oneself. By using a completely different term you twist Blizzard's words and change the meaning entirely. When meanings of something are changed you present a false account of the cited information. A fallacy.
In future any time I put up information from official sources, and the wording might be viewed as being non-neutral, I will be directly quoting with "quoation marks", and page number citations, to point out that they come from Blizzard and not my own words. Removal of quotations can be viewed as a non-neutral act of vandalism.Baggins 00:06, 2 January 2007 (EST)Baggins 23:34, 1 January 2007 (EST)
Fight is a very neutral term,it can also mean defend. besides we change the termilogy used by Blizzard all the time,like the time we changed that stupid "evil never looked so sexy" used to describe the blood elves. Angry ogre
- "evil never looked so sexy" was never properly cite, to know if it is official or not. We don't move cited quotes however. Fight is not as neutral as "defend". Fight usually implies "offense". Defend is not one of the definitions of fight in Webster's dictionary to use a dictionary as an exmaple. You can't just start makig up your own definitons. That is information removal, and highly frowned upon.Baggins 01:15, 2 January 2007 (EST)
Brann's POV Edit
The info is from Brann Bronzebeard who feels they invaded and is bound to support his own races. Zarnks 04:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
You don't know Brann. Brann is very critical of the alliances, and while he does tend to lean toward the side of the dwarves, he wants the factions to negotiate something, not for one to destroy the others.--Austin P 23:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
- Um, right? And how is he critical of the Alliance? He has done almost nothing but dehumanize the Horde in his RPG Books, making it seem that Thrall is the only reason the orcs are not still bloodthirsty savages. He clearly does not know what happened on Draenor, or about the Frostwolves help with reforming the Horde. Instead, he puts the Horde in the same league as the Scourge, when it is really more similar to the Alliance. He never got his facts straight, nor did he take into effect how long the orcs have lived there or how long its been since the dwarves lived there. He is a biased man and an unreliable narrorator. Eman91 18:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Eman91
- Seems someone is biased themselves... Brann might have some bias but he's certainly more credible than fan bias of your type. It appears you likely never read the book, attacking one comment made by Brann, but not necessarily having any knowledge of the many times that Brann has defended the Horde. Also Brann probably takes more time attacking racism and problems he sees in the Alliance before he even discusses the Horde's problems. But you don't even seem to know about that... My guess is you probably haven't even read the books...?
- Also point of note, much of HPG is Brann transcribing what he was told by Eitrigg, and other Horde scholars. Its kinda hard to split Brann's opinions from Eitrigg's. To quote Brann;
First, I would like to thank the wise warrior Eitrigg for his aid in compiling this information, especially onthe history of the Horde. The Warchief was kind enough to lend Eitrigg’s services as a loremaster to me for this work, and I feel that I could not have possibly done as complete a report without his aid. At Thrall’s request, I have made a copy of this text for each of the leaders of the Horde, and he has given me his blessing to distribute copies to Jaina Proudmoore and Tyrande Whisperwind as well. I will also retain my own copies of the work for use in the Explorers’ Guild; however, due to the nature of some of the information contained herein I have agreed not to distribute it to every ol’ lad in the Alliance. After all, I’m not trying to help orcs kill humans here, or vice versa — I believe both the Alliance and the Horde need to make some major changes in order to survive this bloody war, and you’ll see more of what I mean here. My thanks as well to the many other contributors to this text, though you are far too numerous to name. Leaders of the Horde, I humbly beseech you to pay heed to my words in this report. I know some among you believe my goal is to weaken and divide you, and I can give you only my word that that is the furthest from my intent. Read on, and learn what I have learned. ()
- The above letter denies any suggestions that Brann is a truly biased writer. The example you gave of "only reason orcs are not bloodthirsty savages" may or may not be an idea Eitrigg suggested to Brann because of this. If it is an idea from Eitrigg, then the context would be from one of Thrall's greatest supporters. In as such he may be inflating Thrall's importance in bringing peace to the orc's "savage" ways. That is Eitrigg could believe that Thrall only Thrall is diserving of the praise, as if there were no one else involved with bringing the peace or keeping it.Baggins (talk) 06:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
It is unknown which valley they were in, as when the Frostwolf Clan arrived the particular in-game Alterac Valley, there was no trace of dwarven socieities, and it remained this way until long after the Third War. Many of the quest-givers in WoW itself seem to be extentions of the Explorers' League, while the Alliance Brigadier General states the Horde was right when they insist that is was Frostwolf territory, and that the troops were only being placed there in order to "avenge their fallen bretheren...the brave dwarves who perished during that cowardly unannounced attack!" It is likely that the "Alterac Valley" that the Stormpikes "lived in for generations", is not the same one as the one the orcs were living in. Otherwise, it is likely that the conflict would have starting long before the events of World of Warcraft. Instead, a misunderstanding on both sides is potientially the cause of the conflict.This section was removed tue to lack of citations, and a mix of bias, game mechanic interpretation, and pure speculation. Discuss it on the talk page, but certainly doesn't belong in the article. Especially outside of speculation section. Remember speculation requires citations as well.Baggins (talk) 06:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Hill Dwarves or Mountain Dwarves?Edit
- Due to their connection to the Wildhammer clan, and Stormpike Guard's initial neutrality with clans of Ironforge, they may be one of the clans of hill dwarves that befriended the wild dwarves. They may be one of the Khaz Modan hill dwarves (A term used in Day of the Dragon) as many Stormpike live in the hills around Loch Modan. As Khaz Modan hill dwarves they would have an apparent connection and allegiance to the mountain dwarves living in Khaz Modan as well, explaining their connection to Magni Bronzebeard.
- It is believed that through the Stormpike clan, that the Ironforge dwarves could improve their relations with the Wildhammer dwarves. If Stormpike clan are hill dwarves from Khaz Modan, they may have a connection to the hill dwarves that fought alongside the wild dwarf Falstad to take back Grim Batol.
- On the other hand, as one of the "Alliance factions" they could just be mountain dwarves, with allegiances to Ironforge, and their proximity to Wildhammer dwarves and high elves in The Hinterlands, is what is leading to improved relations.
- Because Magni Bronzebeard was able to issue an imperialistic sovereign imperative to the Stormpike Guard to take the valleys for Ironforge, this may also imply either Khaz Modan hill dwarves connection, or mountain dwarves connection. Also the fact that they live in the mountains could just be another detail which implies that they are "mountain dwarves" instead.
Moving this speculation out of the main article since its kinda irrelevent considering how jumbled the definition of hill dwarves and mountain dwarves are. Besides I think its pretty clear that many Stormpikes are Ironforge dwarves, even if they might have a relationship to the Wildhammers.Baggins (talk) 09:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
What’s the origin of this clan? When did they arrive to Alterac Mountains? Are they part of the Ironforge clan? They seen to be physically related to Bronzebeards but have some differences and many people talk about the war with the orcs but certainly it’s unclear when they settled in those mountains. --Miklagard (talk) 00:21, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
Ok according to this http://www.wowwiki.com/Hill_dwarf there were several clans in the slopes of Khaz Modan, they were related to the Bronzebeards Dwarfs in any case. Rom was one of the dwarfs of these clans, and it's possible that the Stormpike Clan was one of they, but this is half official speculation. If this is true, certainly they were in Khaz Modan in the Second War. --Miklagard (talk) 11:51, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
"After Thrall's triumphant uniting of the clans, the Frostwolves, now led by the Orc Shaman Drek'Thar, chose to remain in the valley they had for so long called their home. In recent times, however, the relative peace of the Frostwolves has been challenged by the arrival of the Dwarven Stormpike Expedition. The Stormpikes have set up residence in the valley to search for natural resources and ancient relics. Despite their intentions, the Dwarven presence has sparked heated conflict with the Frostwolf Orcs to the south, who have vowed to drive the interlopers from their lands." 
Make no mistake about it, <name>. The Horde is quite right when they say Alterac Valley is Frostwolf Territory.
You see, the Stormpike Expedition arrived as peaceful visitors to the area in search of ore and relics. The Frostwolves reacted with the most brutal and uncivilized act of aggression the Alliance has experienced.
Let us never forget the brave dwarves that perished in that cowardly unannounced attack. Go now, <class>, do your part in the battle for Alterac Valley. For the Alliance! 
There you have the evidence of a retcon. The Stormpike dwarves are new to the area and the Alliance is fighting to claim the relics and avenge the deaths of archaeologists.
- And that's your interpretation of it. I actually read the passage made in the APG, while the quoted material on that page isn't exactly word for word it does have an error in it... The APG states "they’ve taken a liking to the Alterac Mountains and defend them fiercely against the trolls and orcs invading the area." .. So who's to say they didn't come into the area looking for ore and relics and stayed cause they liked the area, then the orcs attacked them... thus "invading" their area, even though the lands may have belonged to the Frostwolves, the Stormpike clan may have not realized it at the time, but soon learned that. I see no evidence of a retcon here and adding your believed retcon into the middle of cited material is very frowned upon. THAT was the main reason I removed it and lets see if you can continue this discussion (if there is one to continue) without adding your beliefs into the article at the same time. User:Coobra/Sig4 02:02, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
- Then why does it still say "Valleys of Alterac" in the page if the live in Alterac Mountains and the paragraph is extremely vague? Additionally World Of Warcraft says they arrived into Alterac valley very recently and the Alliance player's guide citation is saying the Frostwolf clan is invading Alterac Valley. Either way there is either a retcon or a misquoted citation. Copperblast (talk) 02:12, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
- AREA it says area, not Alterac Valley. Area is a vague term, it could mean the entire region or it could mean the small land in which the dwarves are currently settled in. You're reading too much into things. User:Coobra/Sig4 02:13, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
- And in yet another page "it says it is important to note that the Alterac Valley is just one of many of "the valleys of Alterac" where the Stormpike Clan live, and are known to "defend fiercely against the trolls and orcs that invaded the area." So either the writers have bungled or a citation is being misquoted. Copperblast (talk)