Major EditsEdit

This article needs huge and I mean huges amounts of work in light of new information... Can I say huge headache? We'll also have to pretty revise much of the Burning Legion history tooBaggins 17:38, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

our real problem is the new timeline contradiction: Everything but the new material assures us that Sargeras encountered the Eredar before he Fell. This might mean that Metzen's opted for a complete retcon of the Sargeras timeline. --Ragestorm 17:56, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

There's also the Nathrezim. It would be a fairly minor tweak to have the Nathrezim be responsible for Sargeras' corruption, and then he approached the Eredar. As it was before, the Eredar corrupted him and them he discovered the Nathrezim. Of course, this is just speculation. I have no idea what they have in mind. --Adonzo 18:49, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

You're right, but that descision rests with Metzen. For now, the Dreadlord will remain untouched! --Ragestorm 20:15, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Best way is to say something neutral like "demonic" race for all previous eredar refrences however, that would be less of a speculation, and just refrencing the comments as we know them.Baggins 20:18, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Logistically, not all Eredar follow any one path. Therefor, there could have been corrupted Eredar that corrupted Sargeras, and he merely did the same to the rest of the race. --Gigawolf1 18:00, 18 May 2006

The new WoW expansion, Burning Crusade, tell that the eredar race was pacific and good before Sargeras intervention.

The original story is still hosted on the WoW site, it may be prudent to have both the pre-TBC and post-TBC versions up. Especially since the new version is a horrible patch job and contradicts what we know through previous games. Mind you, previous games contradicted each other. Legather 19:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

(::takes note of the "be respectful" note at the top of the page, and heaves a deep sigh::) I'm sure I can't be the only one for whom this is *still* a sensitive issue. Without beating around the bush: Metzen screwed up, he admitted as much, and the "new lore" is now a legitimized mistake (ostensibly retained to avoid having to scrap yet another cheesey Warcraft novel). Just how many ancient, immortal, all-knowing, mystical races does the world of Warcraft need? The storyline is so broken it pains me sometimes. And to think, it all could have been avoided with a little fact-checking!... Or even a Pandaren or two! Or maybe the real-deal Frozen Throne Draenei, before the high-fallutin' space demon connection got dreamed up. Honestly, I don't know how you guys who maintain the pages of WoW Wiki are going to survive with Metzen at the helm of the Lore-ship. In the next expansion (after the one where we go to Northrend, of course) we'll find out all about the Naga's ancient, noble shamanistic heritage, how Sargeras encountered them in the Twisting Nether and corrupted them, turning them into fish-people, and there'll be a novel about it, and their race capital will be on a crashed submarine on a new island zone just off the coast from Stranglethorn Vale, and they'll be opposed to the new Alliance race (Goblins!) who are capturing members of their race and turning them into sushi to help level their cooking profession. --Shpantzen 05:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Bitter much? -- Dark T Zeratul 06:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well surprisingly not only is the old story up on the website but you can also find it in-game as well in the in-game books.Baggins 06:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You do realize that the Naga are corrupted night elves, right?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
You do realize that Sargeras was a Titan who was in charge of defending Azeroth from the Eredar in the Lore, right? --Shpantzen 06:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
What lore are you reading? Prior to the Draenei retcon, Sargeras was the Champion of the Pantheon who defended all worlds in the Nether from the Eredar and the Nathrezim, while Azeroth was under the dominion of the Old Gods. After the retcon, Sargeras was the Champion of the Pantheon who defended all worlds in the Nether from the Nathrezim and other demons, while Azeroth was under the dominion of the Old Gods. The Titans didn't get there until after his fall, Eredar or no eredar.
You don't like the retcons, tough. We don't give a damn about your opinion, however annoying we find these retcons ourselves. This is en encyclopedia, not a forum. So, either you stop whining and do something constructive around here, or you leave us to our work. Your choice. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
(looks up at the top of the page at the "be polite" and "be welcoming" guidelines...) Actually, *this* is a talk page. Which is, essentially, a forum. I haven't vandalized any of the pages, taken down anything that didn't jive with my rather strong opinion, nor have I "whined." I've talked. On a talk page. If I have somehow done something wrong, improper or against some unspoken rule of etiquette here? I apologize. If I somehow managed to say something in the two contributions I've made to a single talk page that offended you and managed to earn your rather rude and abbrasive response, then I apologize. But if this is how you're going to treat people who come to here -- to a website essentially devoted to Lore -- to discuss how they feel about the Lore?... well, you might consider updating your posting guidelines, Mr. Laird o' the Admin. --Shpantzen 04:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sargeras article. Not about the article itself. If you would like to begin such a page, please do so at Talk:Sargeras/Analysis. Essentially, Rage usually deals with people who aren't appreciative of the lore in any case, and so he's become a bit edgy when dealing with such people. Yes, you did violate a "rule;" no, Rage probably shouldn't have bitten your head off. Also, we absolutely abhor speculation, which is, apparently, what sparked this episode of edits. I personally dislike (even after it being speculation) how you went about speculating, but that's opinion. We already knew Metzen screwed up. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 04:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I think what angered rage the most was your initial post seemed to have little point other than to complain. This isn't a forum. Metzen screwed up, he's human and it happens. The job we have here to to update the articles accordingly to the most recently published lore. Often there is wiggle room and decisions have to be made to make sense of contradicting sources. This wasn't one of those times. New lore replaced old lore and that's all there is to it. Doesnt mean it was alright for Rage to chew you out, not a good thing to scare off possible future contributers, but you did violate one of the rules. The wiki is a place to share and search for information, not vent our complaints unless its for the sake of an articles improvement.Warthok 06:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
My overall rudeness and near-violation of TP guidelines is well-documented, and as always, I rely on people like Sky and Warthok to forcefeed me a chill pill. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

while this discussion is a year old and i have no place in the discussions of the truely hardcore wowwikites, myself being a simple WoW fan, but here goes: reading your comments gave me a idea, "Metzen screwed up, he's human and it happens." Human? MABYE HE WAS CORRUPTED bY SARGERAS?--Truckman1 23:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we refer to ourselves as "WoWWikians," and you are correct. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Some personal thoughts on how things could fitEdit

In the original story(let me begin a bit of a paraphrase directly from the manual) when he was good, he encountered two demonic races he was forced to fight against. Now originally this was Eredar and Nathrezim.

Now we know he couldn't have run into the Eredar.

So Let's say it was some other as of yet named demonic race. It was fighting against this certain race, that troubled him. He tried to trap this race in a vacuous corner of the twisting nether.

Then the Nathrezim show up to cause trouble. He fights them. But their darkness was too much for him so became insane, wanting to cause disorder to the universe to undo the titan's works.

In his madness he shattered the prisons he had made for the unamed race, and nethrezim setting the demons free. Thus the two races offer themselves before him to serve in any malicious way they could.

Let's pause for a minute to insert the new lore;

Next he heads to Argus to convince the Eredar a benevolent magical culture to join his cause. Those that accept are given more power and are warped into colossal beings. A faction of Eredar seeing what their brothers are becoming but don't want to to be corrupted, get help from Naaru and flee accross the galaxy.

So back to the paraphrase of the Warcraft 3 manual.

So out of the newly acquired and corrupted Eredar he chooses two champions to lead his demonic army of destruction. Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde. He sets Kil'Jaeden to seek out darkest races, and lure them to Sargeras's shadow.

He chooses Archimonde to lead his vast armies.

Kil'Jaeden's first move was to enslave the Dreadlords under his dark power. They became his Elite Guard and agents throughout the universe, and they took pleasure in finding primitive races for their master to corrupt and bring into the fold.

First among the dreadlords was Tichondrius and he agreed to promote the sargeras's burning will to all corners of the dark corners of the universe.

Archimonde empowered agents of his own, the mighty pitlords and their leader Mannoroth, he hoped to forge a fighting elite that would scour creation of all life.

Then the legion began its war across the worlds, blah blah blah...

If you took the time to read my paraphrase I think you'll see that that most of original intent of the story could be salvaged if blizzard made a few slight changes to what was said. The original race that Sargeras fought couldn't be the Eredar, but could be some unknown race we haven't heard about. The nethrezim could have still come second and been the ones that drove him mad.-Baggins 23:22, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

that's the best idea I've heard since this mess started. We'll need some sort of disclaimer (just an italic parenthesis, like this) to say that this is an accurate conjecture based on avaliable lore. --Ragestorm 06:40, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Another possibility is this: That Sargeras did not fight all of the Eredar (compare with Night Elves, Orcs, and others who were only partially corrupted), but merely a lesser part who had been previously corrupted. Now, Sargeras would have been troubled by the fact that such wise beings would fall to corruption. The other possibility is that Sargeras literally purified them,a nd actually removed all taint from them. In return, this would have entered him. However, both of these beg the question, 'exactly what corrupted the Eredar the first time?' --Gigawolf1 19:03, 18 May 2006
"What corrupted the Eredar the first time"? Magic! Power! It could have been that a certain group of Eredar where already corrupted (similar to the Highborne kaldori), that corrupted Sargeras who corrupted the Eredar. Pretty confusing, but believable.:D Saimdusan 21:31, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Well it wasn't just nothing that corrupted the high elves. go read the page about the old gods. it says that the old gods, such as c'thun, all died but 3. excluding c'thun the remaining old gods live inside the planet of azeroth and can "whisper" into the minds of the mortals and their whispers are indecipherable(not sure if thats spelled right) from simply a persons madness. so if theyre the ones that corrupted the high elves, then there have to be other gods such as these on the eredar home planet... so yea... i dont think that they were corrupted at the start i just think that they would be almost the same as the night elves back when they 1st started. no corruption. but then sargeras came and corrupted the ones that he could get his hands on and the ones that resisted were guided away from the planet by the naaru.( light thingys) it says the art about the naaru leading them away on the eredar page...i think.::zaqataq38. january 17, 2007.

A disturbing quote from Metzen Edit

Not sure where to put it, but it deserves mention: "Who dares me to use Old Gods?" - Metzen, regarding possible new reason for Sargeras' corruption --Potbasher 03:11, 17 May 2006 (EDT)

How disturbed can you get? the only retcons that would require are A) confirming that the Pantheon only survived the Old Gods as a unified entity, and that the Old Gods are more than a match for a lone Titan, and B) something saying that the Old Gods are more of a cosmic even than simply the first lords of Azeroth. --Ragestorm 06:53, 17 May 2006 (EDT)

I think that comment was meant as a joke, seen as how the Old Gods are responsible for practically everything bad that's ever happened on Azeroth, with the exception of Burning Legion things. Pinning Sargeras' corruption, and as such the Burning Legion, on the Old Gods would make people's brains explode and he would be murdered within a week. --Adonzo 01:34, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

I think so too, actually, but just thought it should be mentioned somewhere. Because, well, we never know :) --Potbasher 02:14, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

If to goes on the page, I insist upon clear disclaimers- I can picture him roaring with laughter after typing that. Though I do like the fact that he admitted he just forgot about the old timeline. --Ragestorm 06:57, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

Maybe he meant that first he was bothered by the nathrezim race, and then, while fighting the old gods he finally lost his faith in his mission...maybe, like they did to the high elves in tirisfal, the old gods whispered to sargeras and made him mad, since his resolution was made weaker by the encounter with the nathrezim, maybe they wanted him to help them to destroy all

That would have to be retconned so that Sargeras actually fought the Old Gods, as the Pantheon fought them short after his fall (recall that only four members blessed the Aspects), but prior to the arrival of the Legion. What high elves in Tirisfal? --Ragestorm 06:06, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

When the High Elves first landed in Lordaeron they build a settlement in Tirisfal, but "something evil beneath the earth" drove many of them mad, so they moved on towards Quel'Thalas -Rovdyr

As it stands, the entire plot of Warcraft is a 'disturbing quote from Metzen'. Imagine if Tolkein had turned around and said "Actually, the Ring was happy just sitting on people's fingers until Gollum came along and turned it evil". Legather 19:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't it Kil'jaeden that inslaved the Dreadlords? But if it was Sargeras, then did Kil'jaeden enslave them after they were weak or what? Jclipps 16:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I might be a bit slow but this is just incredible.. I just told Ragestorm something about lore he didn't know before!! Maybe we should get a new bookkeeper? Just Kidding ofc :P -Rovdyr 17:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The Future Edit

We've been discussing the past of Sargeras quite a bit but what about the future. We all know that he's pretty much the big bad guy of warcraft. He tops everyone else. And as much as I, and pleny of other people, love the story of Arthas and the Lich King, this guy is bigger and badder than that. Right now he's basically dead, or more accuratelly, he's drifting in the nether, but he has to come back. A villain like this doesn't just stay dead, they never do. When WoW ends, and with wow, Warcraft all together, this is the guy to be killed.

I somewhat doubt that the driving out of his spirit meant his death. I seem to be relying on the LotR references here but look at what happened to Morgoth and Sauron. Upon their defeat, their spirits were 'simply' cast out of the world. Legather 19:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

There's one thing that deserves looking at. The first time Illidan failed killing the Lich King, Kil'Jaeden came to him and threatened him almost instantly. It's been about two years (or four, if years WoW has been live count) since Illidan failed again and Kil'Jaeden has left him pretty much alone. Where is he? Recruiting more soldiers? Or is he looking for, or has he already found Sargeras. Personally, I think Kil'Jaeden would be pretty happy without Sargeras in the picture but I think that's a point worth looking at. Maybe Sargeras even found him. - Maarz Jan 20/07

The whole point of Kil'jaeden is that he's always scheming in the background; we never know what he's up to, and that's far more menacing than getting regular updates.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:09, 20 January 2007 (EST)
No doubt, just expressing a thought though, no need to get upset -- Maarz
Sorry if I came across that way, it was not my intention. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:53, 22 January 2007 (EST)
"Kael'thas Sunstrider yells: All for what? Trinkets? You are too late. The preparations have already begun. Soon the master will make his return." Don't you think that this master can be just Sargeras? Isn't he the true master of Burning Legion?So maybe they plans to make him living again(BirdFox 19:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC))
A'dal says Kil' is comeing to Azeroth.--SWM2448 19:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't get why when Gul'Dan came to Sargeras's tomb he couldn't find his body, though it was Sargeras himself who told him where to find him. I read in an article which was claiming that. Even when Illidan came the only thing he found was his eye. So now Sargeras's body is gone and even he doesn't know where it is?--Grievous 08:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Stupid and Useless Pictures Edit

The first picture of Sargeras is excellent. The second picture I'm pretty sure is not Sargeras but a doom guard. remember he is dead and his spirit is lost in the twisting neither not in the tomb of sargeras. also if you know Gul'dan's story he was torn apart by demons and this was just one of them, he just thought it was Sargeras. next picture in one of a daemon not Sargeras so why the hell is it in the article. Noman953 23:28, 23 January

Because, I'm willing to bet that the second picture comes from WCII, when Gul'dan opened Sargeras's tomb. Several demons popped up and owned him. I don't know if it is or isn't, but I suspect that's why it was there (hence the description of "Demon from the tomb").--Sky 23:37, 23 January 2007 (EST)
I'll take responsibility for the WC2 one still being there, as I changed the caption with the intent of discussing its removal, but never got around to discussing said removal. The WC3 image is up for debate, as it's the image that Gul'dan sees in the distance. He takes it to be Sargeras, and the shadow does not look like a Doomguard. The best explanation for this is that it's an image conjured by his fevered mind, as he wasn't torn apart until later in the tomb. The WC2 was stupid and useless, but the WC3 one was only one or the other. That one could remain, captioned "Sargeras's ghost as percieved by Gul'dan."--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:44, 23 January 2007 (EST)

Headings Edit

I'm wasn't quite sure where to the place the first heading, and the last heading I'm not quite so sure about. Otherwise, are they worthy? Smiley--Sky 23:47, 23 January 2007 (EST)

Illidan's RunesEdit

Anyone know the full story behind the runes on Illidan's body and how and why Sargeras gave them to him. Ragestorm I know you knew something about that. I would like to include it myself but I'm too ignorant about the full story.--User:Noman953 19:34, 23 January 2007

"Ignorant" it far too strong a word in this case, Noman. I'm separated from my copy of The Sundering, so I can't replicate the full story. Cliffnotes version: Illidan's eyes are destroyed (either for daring to look at Sargeras or simply removed by him, I can't recall which), and new eyes are granted to him, which can see all forms of magic. The tatoos/scars across his body snaked outward from the new burning eyes, not stopping until he was covered by their macarbe pattern. So horrific were his new eyes that not even Xavius could look into them. Azshara, of course, was undaunted, and found his new enhancements intriguing. Illidan was, as expected, unnerved by her interest. There has been no sign of residual connection to Sargeras in the centuries since.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:49, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Don't you mean that Mannoroth was too horrified? Illidan was powered up after Malfurion treeified Xavius, and in any case, Mannoroth would be a better example. I mean if the prime Pitlord is disturbed by them, they must be very unsettling.--Austin P 09:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Sargeras Dead? Edit

I just finished reading "The Sundering" of the War of the Ancients trilogy. At the end of the book, Sargeras was supposedly destroyed along with the Well of Eternity as they both "ceased to exist". I think this also supports Sargeras' absence during the third war, perhaps he really is dead because Kiljaeden leads the legion. --TheOneCalledRed- February 26,2007

Sign your posts properly, please. This is impossible, as Sargeras possessed Medivh during the First War, and was active 800 years beforehand (some 9200 years after the Sundering). --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:21, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Oooooo, I forgot all about that. So then Sargeras must be around somewhere, if he is why hasn't he returned as the Lord of the Legion? --TheOneCalledRed - 9:45 - 27 February 2007.

I think Sargeras was serious weakened from his attempt to open a portal through the Twister Nether only to have it collapse on him. Later when Lothar and Khadgar slay Medivh Sargeras his spirit ends up in the Nether (or limbo). He could be dead, but he could still be alive somewhere --Montronax 10:27, 27 February 2007 (EST)
This is one of the reasons that titans are among the beings whose status is "active." Sargeras would have been back to full strength long before Aegwynn destroyed his physical body, so whatever weakening happened from the Sundering has no effects on Azeroth (though some other worlds might have been saved).
Two situations for Kil'jaeden to be Lord of the Legion: 1) Sargeras is completely destroyed or, more likely 2) without a physical body, most demons (who are simple-minded things for the most part) wouldn't follow him, so Kil'jaeden would have to assume command for figurehead purposes (and even with Sargeras at full power, he probably handled a number of day-to-day operations). --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:37, 27 February 2007 (EST)

Sargeras' spirit was cast into the Twisting Nether wasn't it? His spirit is far too powerful to go into any body, and thus has "Ceased to exist". So you could say Sargeras is dead, as a being his power would not fit into WoW, because he would just kill us all if he returned. --Going2hell 00:58, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

Be an interesting instance idea though. Beat the boss in x minutes or he finishes summoning sargeras and he one shots the whole raid. I mean patchwerk and most other raid bosses do a similar trick but being hit by sargeras for 99999999999999999 points of damage would jsut be cool.--Darkling235 13:37, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

There is an interesting idea proposed in the Alliance and Horde Companions that Aegwynn only fought an avatar of Sargeras, and not actually Sargeras himself. That is the avatar was only part of Sargeras will, and not his true being. She was possessed by the avatar, and through the avatar Sargeras could control Medivh. If this has any basis, it might mean that Sargeras might still be out there.Baggins 13:45, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
This would explain Kil'jaeden's recall from Draenor; he hinted to Mannoroth that Sargeras had ordered him back. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:44, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
Ya, I was thinking about that the other day.Baggins 14:45, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
As I understand it, when they said "Sargeras ceased to be" they were referring to the fact that he vanished - not died, vanished. The portal collapsed and so, their view of the Fallen Titan was cut off. When Aeqwynn defeats Sargeras, she does so a little too easily - a trick by him, so that he could sneak his way into her body and, eventually, into her son. Medivh then became possessed by Sargeras, and when Medivh was killed, Sargeras was "banished to the dark abyss" or something alone those lines... implying that he isn't dead, but that his spirit still roams the universe, regaining strength.
~ Peregrine
I really don't think he is dead. Something is very fishy about the Aegwynn encounter. During the War of the Ancients, Sargeras was almost summoned at the very end, after a long time of trying, including several failed attempts and the only way to do it was to use the Well of Eternity itself. But when the demons fought with Aegwynn they were able to summon him in about five minutes with a simple portal, obviously something was wrong.
My theory's, he created a new, much much weaker body and transfered his spirit into it. While in that body he was weak enough to be summoned into Azeroth. His real body is being kept somewhere. Another theory is that he somehow stripped himself of most of his power enabling himself to be easily summoned, then he forfeited his real body by letting it be destroyed, which seems really stupid for him to do. One point that nobody should forget is that Sargeras at 100% power would be very difficult to summon to Azeroth.
My guess is that after the possed Medivh was killed, the spirit of Sargeras was sent to the nether doing who knows what. Kil'jaeden has been searching for Sargeras' spirit and is preparing to put it back in Sargeras' true body. And maybe he just found the lost spirit.
Nathanmaxtro 02:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
At the end of RotH, Kil'jaeden tells Mannoroth that "Sargeras hungers, and he has been very patient with me."--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Isnt there a chance that Kil'jaeden doesn't want the Burning legion to find where Sargeras is so he can control the Burning Legion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ksergey (talkcontr).

I believe Sargeras is not only going to return, but in his old body as well.(in the tomb of Sargeras his body was nowhere to be found, even though Sargeras himself sent Gul'Dan to look for it. I think it's possible that Sargeras took somehow his body out of there, because he knew Gul'Dan was trying to use his power for his own needs.)And besides, we are talking about the most evil being ever to live.. it can't end like this...--Grievous 00:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Most likely Sargeras' limbo condition is being used to purposely weaken him. When you think about the power that Archimonde exhibited in his battles on Azeroth, it does not seem like such a far fetched idea. Archimonde was highly resistant to all forms of attack, and thus one can assume that Kil'jaeden, his superior would be even more powerful. Point being that if Sargeras at full power was ever to set foot on Azeroth he would be damn near invincible against the mortal races. So to give the races of Azeroth a chance to rid themselves of the legion his limbo status was introduced. He likely still communicates and gives orders to Kil'jaeden but he is most probably in a very weakened state. Perhaps with the release of the Sunwell Plateau raid (WoW's patch 2.4) and the inevitable battle against Kil'jaeden we may learn the key to destroying Sargeras. Either way these characters must die one way or another, the fates of Azeroth and the Legion are intertwined one will survive one will cease to be. Archimonde's death is proof that Kil'jaeden can die, which is proof that Sargeras can die...this "limbo" state is a way of making that fact realistic. --Ruffa1 08:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

(Sorry if I'm a little off-topic). Personally, I hope that Sargeras never appears in World of Warcraft. Or at least isn't killable. His death would most likely result in the end of Warcraft, unless Blizzard has some new character planned. Zentyr 00:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sargeras in WoW Edit

This recently occured to me, if i'm reading this article corrently, Sargeras possessed Medivh, if that is true, couldn't it be said that in the Caverns of Time instance where we protect Medich, we are in a sense, protecting Sargeras who has gained control over Medivh's body? Hordesupporter 23:51, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

That's ... true. And crazy. Kirkburn talk contr 00:45, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Yep, we're assisting the burning legion! Hordesupporter 01:38, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

While ensuring they're defeated; if the orcs don't cross into Azeroth, they don't get redeemed, the Alliance isn't formed, and Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Hakkar and Archimonde are still alive. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:53, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
(Injecting my comment in 4 months later) Rage, I'm shocked! Hakkar died in the War of the Ancients! --Sky (t · c · w) 04:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of all that, I was just pointing out the irony, we get to assist one of the most evil beings in the series. Hordesupporter 20:10, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

I think that's the reason they did it. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:37, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
See, this is why Blizzard rock :) Kirkburn talk contr 22:02, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
And ripping the story apart to make room for game mechanics is why they fall short. Legather 00:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Blizzard neither ripped apart the story nor did they fall short in this case. --Raze 00:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL great point. Now what was the reason we helped Medivh (Sargeras) open the portal and let the Orcs in? Was it because we would need their help against the legion? But that's not really the case now is it? Azeroth would actually be a much nicer place if the Dark Portal was never opened.The obvious benefits would be that nothing the Orcs did would have happened, too many things that I'm not going to bring up. But also the Lich King would not exist if Ner'zhul would never make it to Azeroth. The scourge would never have existed and I'm sure that a bunch of other things wouldn't have happened if not a single Orc stepped on Azerothean soil. Of course the story wouldn't be as exciting if none of that happened :) Nathanmaxtro 02:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering the legion, they would have found another way in, and the only race who would have prepared for such a thing would be the night elves, there would be no orcs to fight them, and the humans would have devolved into mindless civil wars, so the dark portal being opened is a neccesary evil. Furthermore, the bronze flight want to the timeline to be as accurate as possible, so they would probably be mostly un-concerned about what the demon orcs did before they were redeemed. Hordesupporter 04:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a nice thought, isn't it? That Azeroth would be a much better place were the Dark Portal never opened? As you might recall, that's the same logic the Infinite Dragonflight used in that very instance when trying to convince you to turn back and let them kill Medivh. And, of course, it's only telling one side of the story. As Hordesupporter said, if the Dark Portal was never opened then the human nations would never have formed the Alliance and, instead, would have descended into civil war. When the inevitable return of the Burning Legion came (because even without the Dark Portal, they would eventually find a way), the people of Azeroth would be woefully unprepared to fight them off, leading ultimately to a victory for the demonic hordes. THAT is why the Dark Portal must be opened. That is why the atrocities committed by the orcs must be allowed to happen, because in the end they lead to the salvation of Azeroth and the destruction of three of the most powerful and influential members of the Burning Legion (Mannoroth, Tichondrius, and Archimonde). To quote Mr. Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... Or the one." -- Dark T Zeratul 08:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...Personally i don't believe the Burning Legion could have found another way to enter Azeroth. Just think for a second - it took Medivh's guardian power combined with the most destructive being ever in order the Dark Portal to be created, and we all know the guardian's power is almost as equal as Sargeras. If Medivh had been killed noone could have opened another Dark Portal. And also... why do you believe there was going to be a civil war anyway? Even if there was such a war it was going to be ten times better for the humans to go through it rather to watch their homeland turned into an undead paradise. No fall of Stormwind, noone could have killed king Llane, Dalaran and the Kirin Tor were going to be intact. Humanity is now ruled by a kid king and there are couple of survivors at Theramore island, and you are telling me the Civil War wasn't going to be better than this. But you are right, there is a high possibility the Alliance wouldn't have been made.. Who needs an Alliance when there are no foes? And about the slaying of Tichondrius and Archimonde, i remember Tichondrius being killed by Illidan and Archimonde by 10000 whisps (hah), not by the worthless Horde.--Grievous 08:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The Civil War would have decimated the Human Race. The Bronze Dragons said so themselves that if the Orcs never came, the Alliance would never be formed. We can only trust the Bronze Dragons on that and considering the fact that the Dragons are Guardians of the World and Norzmordu could probably see to some level alternate timelines, we have to take their worlds for it. There are many ways for the Legion to return to the World. The Old Gods may be one way. The Sunwell may have the same effect as the Well of Eternity. The Demons could force their way in slowly. Besides, if Medivh died then, there would be no prophet to guide Azeroth to victory against any possible eventual return of the Legion. --Invin Dranoel 13:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That may be true, but Medivh did die later and became the prophet. The same would have happened if he died earlier with only one difference - no Dark Portal, no orcs. I am pretty sure the Legion is going to find a way to come one way or another, but there are so many things that would have changed, so much stuff that is not going to happen... there is a connection between everything in WarCraft and to think we are talking about time travelling in WarCraft...Personally i think all peeps here said something true, because we may never know what would happen if the past is changed. That however doesn't change the fact that WoW players had to help Sargeras, which kinda sucks in a way...--Grievous 00:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Betroathed? Edit

When was Sargeras betroathed to Ashara. That's nuts.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darkling235 (talkcontr).

Sign your posts, please. War of the Ancients, Azshara states about every chapter she appears in that Sargeras is her "intended." Admittedly, we don't know Sargeras's exact thoughts on the matter, but given Azshara's power, he was probably at least open to the idea. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:50, 12 April 2007 (EDT)
Actually, pretty much everything from WotA points to this as nothing more than Azshara being delusional. "She did not know, of course, that, in his infinite wisdom, the great one would make her Xavius's consort, but the councilor expected any protests to fade once their wondrous god informed her" (Well of Eternity p.205). There's also a passage from The Sundering that puts it pretty bluntly on p.269, regarding Azshara thinking that Sargeras is worthy to be her husband: "Not for a moment did Azshara question the sanity of her convictions. She who had mesmerized her subjects was herself mesmerized by the lord of the Legion". Illidan also wonders to himself whether Azshara actually believes that she's going to be Sargeras's consort, very much doubting that the notion fit into Sargeras's plan on p.221. Zalera 13:55, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
Sargeras was never betrothed to Azshara, she was merely delusional, thinking that the demonlord, like everyone else, would be dazzled by her "perfection", such that she called him her intended without ever having spoken to him on the matter - Mannoroth's thoughts in the Sundering lead us to believe that Sargeras was aware of her intent and dismissed the idea out of hand.
~ Peregrine


I'm hesitant to ask this, as not much is known about the Titans and there isn't much evidence either way, but I've been curious about something. From the description of the Burning Legion in the WC3 manual, it sounds like the Titans went planet-hopping, going from world to world. But if this is the case, then why did Sargeras hang out in the Nether, waiting to be summoned?

On another note, is it explained exactly why Sargeras was able to come so easily to Azeroth to fight Aegwynn considering how much trouble it took to summon him in the War of the Acients? It is implied that the rip in time interferred with his summoning, but it still seems like his second coming was a pretty trivial matter. --Austin P 13:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion it's not Sargeras that Aegwinn killed in Northrend but an Avatar of him just like an Avatar of Hakkar is as easily as Hakkar the Soulflayer to kill. N'Nanz 15:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

..."is as easily as"? You mean "is easier" or what?--SWM2448 15:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

oh... sorry! easier sure. I mean, maybe Archimonde too was summoned without his full powers, in fact he got killed by wisps that detonate on him (in wc3 this ability killed summoned units). What about? N'Nanz 15:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought avatars were seperate from the original being. Even if Sargeras could exert his will through it, why would killing the avatar take out Sargeras as well? --Austin P 02:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Great point about the planet hopping maybe Sargeras forgot to take the keys to his ship when he left the Pantheon? :P Being that he is a Titan he should know full well how to get to Azeroth being that it is a planet his people had a hand in shaping. Unfortunately we don't know how the titans go from world to world and why Sargeras can't use the same method. Nathanmaxtro 02:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Shadows & Light indicates that the Titans fly from world to world. And don't forget that Sargeras left the Titans before they ordered Azeroth. Austin P 20:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The explanation I had come up with are the following:

  • The titans 'travelled' from world to world using a portal. Only the combined powers of most or all of the titans from the Pantheon were able to create a portal easily which they can travel. When Sargeras tried to enter Azeroth he did not had the aid of the other Pantheon titans however. So he resorted to using a spell created by his Warlocks.

The above can be proven in War of the Ancient. When Sargeras tried to enter Azeroth using a spell portal it was very dificult. But when the Legion had gained control of the Demon Soul. The portal was made a lot faster and stable. The Demon Soul was enpowered by the dragon Aspects who was in turn enpowered by the Pantheon Titans. It is easy to see how easy travelling between world would have been if there are other titans helping. The demon Soul contained the merest fraction of the titans power yet it enable the portal to built so fast.

  • Next theory is that titans have a indivisual sphere of power. Aman'Thul have the power of time as hinted when he grant Nozdormu a portion of his power. One other unknown titan within the Pantheon sphere of power is Space. Combined their power ascent that of Space Time and thus create a portal, a rift in Space Time, as easily as a wave of the two titans hands.

When Sargeras attempted to enter Azeroth he did not have either of the above help. So it made the summonning process a lot longer. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tohjohn (talkcontr).

The first one's a pretty good theory, although the Demon Soul's ability to strengthen the portal doesn't prove it. The DS was a very powerful artifact, and it wouldn't necessarily have needed the Titan's powers specifically to do the things it did. --Austin P 23:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Title Edit

Does anyone know if he had a title before he betrayed, and what was it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rannulf (talkcontr).

Something like 'Champion of the Pantheon'.--SWM2448 19:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Sargeras=Melkor? Edit

Think about it. Lets draw some parallels

  • Most Powerful of the demiurgic entity
  • Started out good but after a period of time in darkness, was corrupted
  • Had a great war with an elven nation.
  • Brother to "leader" of non rouge equals

Edanor 22:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Melkor is based on an archetype in mythology; Lucifer, Set, and Eirlik, beings who existed as favored of the demiurge, but who ultimately Fell. Contrary to popular belief, Tolkien didn't just make all this stuff up, he drew on mythologies and archetypes that had existed for millenia. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I know that Tolkien stole alot of his work, but if you take a look at the parallels, it's closest to tolkiens melkor then any mythology i could find Edanor 02:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Apart from the war with the elves, I see most similarities to Lucifer or Iblis (in both cases, Michael is the non-rogue counterpart). I also notice that the Ainur were the "angels" to Eru's "God," while the Titans don't appear (at this time) to have that connection with a greater entity. As I said, the archetype is so old that it's a standard part of any story. Of course, the folks at Blizzard have read Tolkien (and likely other fantasy and original mythology), so to say there's no connection isn't right, either.
To explain my apparent hostility, we had someone here a while ago trying to convince us that everything in Warcraft was ripped from Tolkien. While I'm certain that's not what you're trying to do, I'm wary of anyone who brings him up. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't even think that point is worth cosidering. Where do gnomes fit in to tolkiens work anyway? Edanor 13:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hobbits? Master of stealth and ability to get out of sticky situation? I agree with Ragestorm on this matter though it is hard not to draw parallels between any fantasy works and the Lord of the Rings. --Invin Dranoel 11:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Redemption Edit

Ive been thinking a thew moments ago... 1st I doubt Medive would be powerful enough to be able to see the future. 2nd a hell lot of the legion's high commanders have died resently. What if Sargeras wanted the Legion to get defeated! After the 1st invasion when the legion was defeated then. 9910 years later he seeked to destroy the Legion by wiping it out using one of the few planets the with stood its wrath! Azeroth. 1st he faiked a fight against the present gaurdien (Not Mdive his mother) while pregnant (PROVING WHY YOU shouldnt fight ultimate evils while having a heart attack/back injuries/pregnancy). In order to defeat the orcs properly the Allience couldnt of won in Stormwind other wise the Horde wouldnt have a foothlod on Azeroth. And the rest until the 7th war (Now remember there were 6 wars before that the war of the ancients that one with Cthun, the troll war, the 1st war, the second war) was completly random! And when Medive was revived so was Sargeras but he still posesed the not so young Gaurdien. Convinced the Warchief of the New Horde to travel to Kalimdor as well as later begging the Allience but only two nations ended up coming (The Gilneas and the Kultiras). He did plan to kill Cenaries since the Titan wanted to see the race with the exact same persanality as Garithos bitch (Ie the Night elves).

So yeah Does my idea make any sence at all???--The last Alterac 11:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid it doesn't.
All of the source material states that Sargeras went insane and planned to undo all of the Titan's works. That alone disproves your theory. Sargeras also stated that he possessed Aegwynn because he didn't think he'd be able to stand up against her, so he opted for a more subtle approach. Assuming you're referring to Medivh's role in Reign of Chaos, it may not have been an exact prophecy, but a very accurate prediction. Medivh is incredibly knowledgeable and knows a lot about the demons. It's also been stated, in this very article, that Sargeras' spirit is floating around the Twisting Nether.
Several other things. Aegwynn wasn't pregnant when she faced Sargeras, you forgot the War of the Three Hammers and the troll empires war against the Qiraj, only a small group of Gilneasians joined Jaina and the Night Elves aren't comparible to Garithos. Garithos hates the High Elves because he was a racist. The Night Elves hate the High Elves because many of their ancestors were responible for the War of the Ancients, and yet they still practiced magic despite all of the trouble it's caused. --Austin P 23:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You only disproved one of my statements which I will now take back. (The part about her being pregnant)

you forgot the War of the Three Hammers and the troll empires war against the Qiraj  I didnt forget the Troll Empires War Against The Qira (I NEVER HERD OF IT) But the Three Hammers one involved the dwarven clans right (I forgot to mention that one)

Night Elves aren't comparible to Garithos. Garithos hates the High Elves because he was a racist. The Night Elves hate the High Elves because many of their ancestors were responible for the War of the Ancients, and yet they still practiced magic despite all of the trouble it's caused THE NIGHT ELVES HATE Almost all of the other races because they are obnoctious and racist like Garithos. (play the Night elves campain in Rein Of Chaos and you will see how obnoctious the night elves are)... All of the source material states that Sargeras went insane and planned to undo all of the Titan's works. That alone disproves your theory What Im trying to say is maybe Sargeras was trying to undo his own work at the very end. Which his work was undoing the Titans work and now he is feeling remorse (GET IT?) Assuming you're referring to Medivh's role in Reign of Chaos, it may not have been an exact prophecy, but a very accurate prediction Yes it may not have been an exact prophacy. Maybe Sargeras gave him some intel on what is about to happen? It's also been stated, in this very article, that Sargeras' spirit is floating around the Twisting Nether. I never denied that--The last Alterac 05:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

In any case, this isn't a forum. Kirkburn  talk  contr 12:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no indication that he felt remorse. Sargeras' soul went into the Nether after Medivh was killed, so by saying that he was still with Medivh during the Third War denies that. And finally the night elves views have changed since the third war. Tyrande says herself that she misjuged them.--Austin P 12:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

But isnt it strange that so many of the Legion's leaders have died recently?? --The last Alterac 00:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)--The last Alterac 00:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)--User:The last Alterac 00:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

No. They were killed by the heroes of Azeroth. No big mystery there.--Austin P 01:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Aegwynn Vs Sargeras Edit

Quote from the main page: "Sargeras held back, letting the mage destroy his physical body".

Is there any passage in the books to support that he actually threw the fight? Or was the transfer of his spirit into Aegwynn a last minute tactic? (I would normally check for myself, but I do not have my books handy). Crazy Diamond 09:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I've heard much of that content was taken from official Warcraft Encyclopedia you might check it out.Baggins 03:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

In The Last Guardian, Sargeras states that he did indeed plan to place his spirit in Aegwynn's body, feeling that it was his best chance of beating her.--Austin P 16:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

"... Killing you was impossible, seducing you unlikely. So I made myself your heir." [1] (LG 249)
As I understand it, Sargeras was not capable to transport his whole being on Azeroth, for that to happen you need something like a Well of Eternity in magic power.
Montronax 23:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Lore issue? Edit

I just read The Last Guardian ans I found some strange thing on the Sargeras page.

Medivh's nature was thoroughly changed after his coma, and his closest friends and relatives noticed something was wrong. Medivh's mother Aegwynn, now banished from the realm for her misdeeds against the Order of Tirisfal, had figured out what Sargeras had done to her, and got into contact with King Llane and his general, Lord Lothar. Lothar felt he had no choice but to destroy the corrupted Medivh in order to prevent the evil Guardian from doing any more damage to Azeroth. Medivh's apprentice wizard, Khadgar, helped Lothar, King Llane and Aegwynn infiltrate Medivh's dark tower, Karazhan. Despite his enormous power, Medivh was caught off his guard, and was in the end killed by his former friends and comrades in his underground sanctum.

It seems like a quote from another source however pages 249 and 250 in The Last Guardian state that Aegwynn was tortured by Sargeras and left broken. And the book never place Llane or Aegwynn anywhere near Karazhan at the moment Sargeras/Medivh got killed by Khadgar and Lothar (The Last Guardian pages 299 and 300).

-- Montronax 00:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern. The relevent passage has been corrected. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There have been multiple versions of who was involved at the time of Medivh's death (lothar and soldiers, just soldiers, and lothar, khadgar, and Garona, to name a few versions), but I can't think of any source stating Llane and Aegwynn were around at the time, so ya the correction was needed.Baggins 18:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Which OneEdit

I was skimming this article, and I didn't see what type of titan he is. I remembered he was a Vanir Titan, but I could be wrong. Which is he?  IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:58, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Though I think is personality is more suited to a Vanir, the fact that he is Aman'Thul's brother implies he is an Aesir. We'll need an RPG citation for this one.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Just checked, he's Vanir[2] (S&L 121).Baggins 15:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps he's a half-brother, or else the Aesir/Vanir genetics are differnt than we thought. I also recall that he was described as bronze-skinned in the Wc3 Man. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:34, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the Vanir are bronze-skinned titans[2] (S&L 109),and Sargeras was, "a noble giant of molten bronze", "His eyes, hair and beard erupted in flames and his bronze, metallic skin split open to reveal an endless furnace of hate and flame.[3] (W3Man 77, 78) according to Warcraft III manual. Other than Vanir and Aesir being considered seperate subspecies of Titan, we don't know much about the race's genetics at all, :p.Baggins 05:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Dark titanEdit

Is there a reason why dark titan is capitalized in this article? I've been looking and only find the term in lower case throughout the sources.Baggins 05:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

No idea. TFT, when Drak'Thul references him? It seems more a title to me. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:06, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, in other sources its lower case, while it still appears to be a title, seems to be used almost as a racial designation. I'll look into listing references where it appears if I get the time.Baggins 06:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Well in W3Man its lower case dark, and upper case T, but this was back when Titan was a proper noun, later sources made it a lower case race name.;

...the dark Titan’s vast rage and power" (78 #?)
...the dark Titan’s will.[3] (W3Man 79)

Apparently the WoW manual, has it capitalized;

...the island dungeon rumored to hold the remains of the Dark Titan, Sargeras...claim the Dark Titan’s remains.[4] (WoWMan 162, 163)

The Warcraft RPG, spelled dark titan lowercase;

Sargeras, the dark titan and lord of the Burning Legion,[5] (WRPG 20)

Magic & mayhem uses "dark titan", lower case, and implies that there are other dark titans than just Sargeras; Magic is a literal gateway drug that allows dark titans such as Sargeras to bring evil influences to the world.[6] (M&M 16)

In Shadows & Light, its always lower case; claim the dark titan’s powers for himself...Archimonde serves as general and overlord for the dark titan’s armies...Mannoroth was the barbaric leader of the Pit Lords when the dark titan Sargeras subjugated them and bent them to his will.[2] (S&L 39, 59, 61)

So perhaps it is used as both a title, and a 'race term'? --Baggins 09:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see both happening. Since he isn't really a Vanir any more, they're using dark titan as a racial, but on the other hand, since he's the only dark titan we know of it's also being used as a title. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Well he's still apparently a Vanir, but he's a very corrupt Vanir, according to Shadows & Light.Baggins 07:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, If one looks at pure metallurgy, I'm pretty sure he's not bronze anymore. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
LoL, well he was described as being molten bronze with split open skin, when he was fully corrupted in Warcraft III manual.Baggins 20:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Illidans Eyes Edit

I recently finished Sundering, and I noticed something about Illidan's new Eyes serving Sargeras as well. Could he see through Illidan's eyes. His words say yes, his actions, or lack thereof say no. Any clarification? (Meneldir 02:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC))

Weapons Edit

would anyone happen to know if the bleeding spear wielded by the avatar has a name?it was the first mentioned weapon of his....why is it nameless? (i think the sword was added because swords are the main weapon in all games, there arn't legendary spears)Baldr 03:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have wondered about the spear too. Why didn't the avatar wield Gorribal? Xavius, the Satyr Lord 13:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Because the avatar might not have been him, but just a projection of him.Baggins 18:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I dunno but i've never eally heard of a legendary spear, in every game if there is a huge weapon of doom then its a sword(exept for doomhammer) Baldr 05:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

What about javelins of Surmanar. Those would be legendary and spearish. Geeko 06:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Something tells me Sargeras-- avatar or person --wouldn't be caught dead wielding something as dainty and full of elaborate Highborne craftsmanship as one of those, and would much rather carry a big, foreboding weapon decorated with humanoid skulls that pulses with fel energies and spews gouts of blood at things. --Super Bhaal 19:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't saying Sargeras was wielding them i was just replying to the comment above about how a Legendary spear doesn't sound like it exists. But what you said about Sargeras is true. Geeko 01:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

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