Talk:Mana regeneration

I have given this article a complete overhaul so it better represents how mana regeneration is actually handled internally in the game. Hope it is ok with everybody. Please check that the information is still correct. --Zootsko 01:17, 13 Mar 2006 (EST)

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I Don't agree with this formula.

In theory and according to this formula:

((1 spirit) / 5 ) + 15 = 15.2 Mana/Tick (Druid consideration) Mana/Tick = Roughly 2 seconds so 15.2/2 = 7.6 Mana Per second.

Most items are 5mana per 5 seconds, or 5 mana per 8 seconds, so according to the formula, with consideration for the "mana/sec" rule..:

I conclude that +1 spirit >> 5mana / 5 sec (or 1 (mana/second)).

In order for 5 mana/5sec to be better, spirit must be 1/64th or something like that.

This value you maybe accurate at higher levels, but it doesn't seem valid if tryign to compare 1 mana/sec = "X" spirit (with consideration for the 5 second rule).

Help please,

(My first time posting, Write me sgt_tais@yahoo.com) Thank you.

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Ah, but that's if someone only had 1 spirit. Consider the following:

((1 spirit) / 5 ) + 15 = 15.2 Mana/Tick
((25 spirit) / 5 ) + 15 = 20 Mana/Tick
((50 spirit) / 5 ) + 15 = 25 Mana/Tick
((100 spirit) / 5 ) + 15 = 35 Mana/Tick

As you can see, there is decreasing returns for more spirit, because that 15 free is always there.

Each point of spirit only adds .2 Mana/Tick, or 2mana/5sec if I am reading it right. So yes, 5mana/5sec is not worth much, but it is worth something, around 2 spirit I'd say.

--Stfrn 00:15, 30 Jan 2006 (EST)

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"A system in which each additional unit of input yields less and less additional output is said to exhibit diminishing returns. "

If you add one spirit it goes up by 0.2 in your example. If you add one more spirit it goes up again by 0.2 so it is **NOT** diminishing returns as it doesn't yield "less and less" additional output; Each additional spirit point adds as much as the first.

--Byo 13:19, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

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I divided the 'Mana gained per tick' column with Spirit and arrived at the third column which for all classes have the form: a+b/x, where x is Spirit and a and b are constants. From that it seems pretty clear to me that 'Mana gained per tick' exhibits diminishing returns. Am I wrong? I don't know where the 0.2 value came from?

--Zootsko 21:05, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

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That shows constant returns as adding the first spirit point adds to the spirit as much as the very last one you have. ie a graph would have a constant gradient (be a straight line) as opposed to diminishing returns where it would go up quickly and flatten out.

y = mx + c

Mana Regen = 1/5 (spirit) + 15

Your extra column is not the 'extra regen' added by a specific point of spirit; to get the actual value for this you would differentiate (Spirit/5 + 15) with respect to spirit giving.... (1/5) showing that for every additional point of spirit you get 0.2 mana hence it is constant returns.

--Byo 17:22, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

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You're right. Differentiating does not account for the constant however - but I guess one have to assume that it is added independently of Spirit i.e. at Spirit = 0, regen = constant. --Zootsko 23:49, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

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I think you guys are missing a major point here.

The whole basis of the 5 mana over 5 secs is that it provides you mana no matter if you are chain casting or not. No healing spell casting time lasts less than 5 seconds. With the 5 second rule now put on spells this means that you will never get anything from your spirit if you are chain casting (which will happen to a priest in nearly every MC or high level instance fight).

With that being said ANYTHING which gives you mana while casting is invaluable. The effects may not be huge but even if a few of the mana/sec items only add up to 50 mana / 5 seconds then over a 5 minute battle thats (300 secs x 10 mana/sec) = 3000 mana you wouldnt have had. I dont think anyone would put their nose up at 3k mana if it were in the form of 200 int spread over a few items.

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I thought the mana regen forumula for Priests was: 13 + (Spirit / 4) per tick (one tick = 2 seconds). Where did the 12.5 come from?

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There is a very easy way to compare mana per second regen and spirit regen. Someone who never casts spells will benefit 100% spirit, but the more they fight, the less mana they would regen when compared to the mana per second item. At some point, those two values will be equal. That's the number you want to find.

Lets say I have two pieces of armor. One regens 8 mana per 5 seconds, the other has 20 spirit. When should I use one and when should I use the other? 8 mana per 5 sec = 1.6 mana per second. 20 spirit = 2.5 mana per second (when not "in combat", in other words having cast a spell in the last 5 seconds.)

Let x be the % of when we are in combat

1.6 = (1-x)2.5

Solve for x. You get 36%. In other words, if you spend more than 36% of the time "in combat", you should wear the mana per second gear. You can also factor in talents that give you 15% mana regen when in combat.

1.6 = (1-x)2.5 + (x)2.5(.15)

NOTE: Factoring in talents like Spirit Tap is more difficult. There is no easy way to tell how often you will proc it, and what percent of the 15 second effect is "in combat" and out of combat. However, lets assume for a moment that spirit tap is always active when you aren't in combat:

1.6 = (1-x)5

Solving for that gives us 68%. The only time you're going to be constantly using spirit tap is when grinding, and then you would hopefully spend more than 68% in combat.

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The previous formulas for health/mana regeneration of warlocks didn't seem to fit my experience at all, so I've decided to measure them using a good old stopwatch, wearing different equipment to get varying attributes. The raw data was analyzed by a gnuplot script, resulting in a good fit for the formula Spirit/5 + 15. Can other warlocks verify this? --Archibalgul 12:29, 4 Mar 2006 (EST)

Innervate

There was some attempts to change the description of Innervate in this article. I know the nature of Innervate is often misunderstood and that people want to correct these misunderstandings but this is not the place to do it. The section where Innervate appears in this article is about the five second rule, not about spell effects in general. As such, only Innervate's +100% modifier to mana regen when the five second rule is in effect is relevant here. The resistance effects of [Mage Armor] isn't listed either, for instance. --Zootsko 10:02, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

I greatly disagree. Innervate does two effects for mana regeneration- it increases your rate by 100% while casting, and multiples the final rate by 4. Out of combat this means you recover four times faster, but during the 5-second rule you actually can recover faster then when not casting since the 15% and so forth are also multiplied. However, it looks like the developers consider this a bug so it will be changed in the next patch.--Stfrn 08:56, 8 June 2006 (EDT)

What do you disagree with? And where do you see that the 15% and so forth are multiplied by Innervate?--Zootsko 09:25, 8 June 2006 (EDT)

I disagree with your opinion that the details are not needed :) I know that the extra is multiplied by using innervate for months, and from the consensious of the druid forums. Also, the fact that it is currently listed as a bug that will be fixed. But in any case, only half of the mana-regen properties of Innervate are listed currently.--Stfrn 11:12, 8 June 2006 (EDT)

Ah ok. Well, I can't agree with you as to me it would imply that mana regen would be increased by 800% during casting - but I can't stop you from being bold of course. Also, can you please provide a link to something that list it as a bug? I can't seem to find anything. Thanks. --Zootsko 11:37, 8 June 2006 (EDT)

Ah, no you misunderstood- the +100% only comes in when casting, hence the bug. There is no 800%.--Stfrn 23:42, 12 June 2006 (EDT)

Again, I understand how Innervate works (think so anyway). What I mean is that listing other details of Innervate in this table would give the reader the impression that the spell increase mana regen by 800%. --Zootsko 03:24, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

Comparing spirit based and direct regeneration

In theory, direct regeneration is preferable over spirit-based regen, as it is not subject to the 5 second rule. If for example a priest could give away 8 spirit, and gain 5 mana/5, the latter would give the same regen as the spirit at all times, and thus be better. He would forfeit HP regeneration, but mana regen in combat is much more valuable. The factor where Spi and mana/5 give the same base amount of regen (outside the 5 second rule) is 1.6 spi for 1 mana/5 for priests and mages, and 2 spi for all others.

In the Item Values article an attempt is made to reverse-engineer the factors Blizzard uses when creating Items. According to it, 1 mana/5 has the same value as 2.4 spirit. The main insight from this is that priest and mage have no easy solution. Comparing items of otherwise similar properties, the only difference being that one has Spi and the other mana/5, mana/5 gives mages and priests (1.6/2.4 =) 66% of the regen which they would get from spirit. All other classes get (2/2.4 =) 83% of the regen from spirit out of mana/5, so for those the latter seems much more viable.

Example: Comparing Tooth of Gnarr and Seal of Rivendare. According to the Item Value analysis, the Int and Sta on the Tooth are worth a little more than the Int on the Seal. Still for the classes except Mage and Priest, the 3 mana/5 is quite close to the spirit regen (7 spi gives them 3.5 mana/5), so choosing the Tooth should be easy for them. Mage and Priest otoh gain 4.4 mana/5 from 7 spi, so they face a tougher decision.

Your assumptions are still wrong. You write that mana/5 gives 66% of the regen which they would get from spirit. This is false, plain and simple. The alleged item values from the article you refer to has nothing to do with mana regenerative effect. You are comparing apples and oranges. --Zootsko 09:57, 4 June 2006 (EDT)

No, you fail to understand what I'm saying. The premise is: "Comparing items of otherwise similar properties" What about that is wrong?? I'm not comparing apples and oranges, but Items of equal Ilvl etc. --Batox

You're right but my point is that this doesn't show from your text. "Items of otherwise similar properties" means nothing to a casual reader. Maybe we could write "items gained with similar effort" or something like that, which captures the relevance of the point your are trying to make? Also, the 5 sec rule isn't completely accounted for. --Zootsko 12:11, 4 June 2006 (EDT)

Lol, ok. Feel free to edit my text any way you like. Your approach (finding the percentages of regeneration which take place inside/outside the 5 sec rule) yields the most accurate result, no question. There are even UI mods which help finding these percentages. But in my experience, a rule of thumb like: "Take the item with the higher item level (and/or the better quality), and when comparing items of similar level and quality, have that factor of 2 (resp. 1.6) in mind" is much easier in application, and should give quite the same results as the more scientific approach. --Batox 03:08, 5 June 2006 (EDT)