Talk: M'uru

Kinda hard to tell

Why is it presumably male? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 19:49, 19 January 2007 (EST)

Should say "presumed". I think it was referred to as a "he".--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:25, 19 January 2007 (EST)

Reasons why I doubt M'uru is a matyr

1.using holy magic does not make one a good person as evidenced by Daelin proudmoore and the scarlet crusade

2.The only thing letting blood elves have holy magic teaches them is that they can steal anything and that its easier to just steal the something rather then the work for it through faith.

3.the Naaru are at all fond of the horde,I mean they'll tolerate them and accept their help but they sure as hell don't like them. After all they are the enemy of their precious army of light

4.Blizzard has stated blood knights are completly evil

5.Blood elves are tainted beyond repair with demon energy. Everything good in them is dead or dying,which is why many blood elves have complete apathy for others, sometimes going as far as taking joy in someone's elses pain. They are not at all friendly with their allies their just means to an end,I can't find a single blood elf who is an actual friend to another member of the horde. A Naaru are probably disgusted by the presence of a blood elf.

6.Blood elves rather then fight their addiction,they chose to suck demonic energy.

7.due to their horrible choice of lifestyle All blood elves will eventually become demons. This is stated by a night elf npc and Blizzard has said Blood elves will be a different race from high elves once they become completly demonic.

8.Lorewise a Naaru would gut a blood knight on sight. Blood knights are a parody of everything they stand for. They don't do this ingame due to the fact that would be unfair to blood elf paladin players. This was stated by a CM.

This whole Matyr theory seems like a sad attempt to salvage a lore trainwreck. Angry ogre

I've corrected the placement of your comment. Now, let's take this one by one, and bear in mind that I dont have a strong opinion either way:

• 1) True, simple use of the Light does not guarantee that one is a good person- but there is a possibility that it might have some kind of gradual impact on the person's ideals- though Proudmoore and the Crusade are overzealous, their ideals aren't evil.
• 2) Show me your evidence.
• 3) What hack evidence do you have to support that statement, apart from them favoring the dreanei?
• 4) Show me that press release.
• 5) Completely unfounded- if they were tainted beyond repair, then the Horde's blood elves would be betraying the Horde and helping Kael in his Legion-sanctioned efforts, instead of joining the raid to kill him.
• 6) That's how they're fighting their addiction.
• 7) Night elf NPCs dislike all other species of elf because of the Kaldorei/Quel'dorei split nine thousand years ago- a statement like that cannot be taken as unbiased. Blizzard has said that Blood elves would be a separate species from the high elves if they become completely demonic- it is not say that this wuld definetly happen.
• 8) Show me your evidence.

I can accept that M'uru is not a martyr- but only with better evidence. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:56, 7 February 2007 (EST)

If I may intrude, there is a common belief that the blood elves are consuming demonic magic to fight their addiction. However, I believe this is a misconception. From what I've read thus far at their race history on the Blizzard website, I have come to believe that they are consuming all forms of magic, divine, demonic, etc and aren't exactly being choosy. In fact, the only magic specifically mentioned is arcane magic. The only ones actively seeking demonic magic are the blood elves are the Outlanders and not the Azerothian ones. mr. peasant 21.21, 7 February 2007 (GMT)

1.Theres been no evidence of that happening. Infact blood knight Npcs say the light continually tries to resist and escape.

2.If a parent didn't let a kid have a candy until he worked for it,he would learn you have to work for things. On the other hand if the parent(M'ruu) pretended to be captured by the kid(blood elf) and the kid just stole the candy bar(light). It would just teach the kid that its easier that its easier to hurt others and steal things instead work for them. After learning this lesson the kid would most likely grow up to be the Jack the ripper.

3.Theres the fact that Only a small minority in the forsaken believe in the light(a warped version too) the rest of the horde either doesn't care about the light(orcs,tauren,trolls) or abhor(forsaken and blood elves) it. Orcs almost wiped out their favorite subjects the draenei,the Draenei still hold the grudge and I doubt the Naaru really care whether the orcs where tricked into doing its still not something one can forgive and forget about. Also Both Azeroths and outlands blood elves harass the Draenei. They also probably heard stories of horde cruelty from the humans and Draenei. Basically horde is just a bunch of guys they aren't fond of who do favors for them in exchange for tips.

4.One of the Cms said the blood knights would be more evil flavored. Another time they said that a blood knight is the evil counterpart to the paladin.

5.Blood elves are only fighting Kael because he betrayed them and they want revenge. They are not doing because they are good or like the horde. Infact if they had it their way horde races would be used for slave labor

6.That doesn't fight their addiction only warps their mind and steadily destroys their soul. The right way to do it would be to meditate or sate their thirst with moonwells like the high elves.

7.This wasn't just any Night elf. He was a reseacher and wanted you to bring him Satyr brain stems. After you completed the quest,he noted that a satyr's brain is almost virtually to a blood elf brain stemn in that both of them are warped beyond repair with fel magiks. He goes on to say that only a madman would absorb demonic energy theres no way that he would come out without a warped brain. Even their brothers the high elves admit blood elves are a lost cause. Also Blizz said blood elves are rapidly are becoming more demonic and won't be the same race as high elves soon.

8.Drsyc a cm responded to the question "Why are blood knights allowed in Shattar" and he said it was for balance not lore,in the lore, Naaru wouldn't a blood knight enter. Angry ogre

I think Blizzard invented the blood knights because they thought everyone would like EVIL paladins. But then they realised it would take work to change the holy glow of paladin spells ,so they made up some crap about blood elves about blood elves stealing the light,so that people could have EVIL paladins and they wouldn't have to do the backbreaking work of changing the color of paladin spells. They probably thought that people who care about lore would get upset but then realised if they could get away with the draenei they could get away with anything.Afterwards they decided not to change the model of the Draenei's ghostwolf to something that actually that makes sense,because switching models would be too HARD for them to do. Angry ogre

Does it sound like I give a damn?

Blizzard's done what Blizzard's done, you are never going to swing us to your line of thinking.

Back on topic, your parent/candy bar analogy makes sense. For now, I'll add a note saying that the theory has holes. As for you "evidence," I refuse to consider it until you point me to the actual text. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:14, 7 February 2007 (EST)

oo oo let me give bebunking this a try! :P

1. I've not seen the evidence you speak of after having played through the Blood Knight quests up to level 25, twice. Details please.
2. This is true
3. This shows your complete misunderstanding of the situation. The Horde is not enemies of the army of light, that is never said or even implied. The Scyers, the Blood Elves who changed sides to join the Naaru have been well accepted by the Naaru (though not the Aldor Draenei), and Azerothian Night Elves are invited to join them too. Simply because the Draenei may hold a grudge to the Orcs (something that i've never yet seen expressed in Draenei lands), does not mena the Naaru consider them enemies. That the Dranei and Blood Elves now hate each other thanks ot Kael doesn't say naything of the Naaru either. We've only ever seen the Naaru in a supportive and protective role, never one of leadership, the Draenei act on their own, with council, guidance and help from the Naaru.
4. Even if that is true, a CM's word is never that reliable. Metzen tried to explain why the Blood Elves are not evil, yet sadly all he did was prove they are and that people apparently don't want to admit it because they see it as justified. The why, the how.. all irrelevant, they are evil now. Their actions speak of what they have become, no one on the receiving end cares as to the reason.
5. The same could be said about the Forsaken. The Azerothian Blood Elves, and even the Scryers, saw the line for the first time, saw Kael's path, and decided it's one they don't wish to follow, and not a line they're willing to cross. Kael is well on his way to becoming Wretched himself fro mthe sounds of it. They see what they need to do things border-line evil to survive, but they will only go so far, as not to become like those they consider pure evil. It has paved way for the more sinister types to act out and take power though. Think of it like the Burning Blade within the Orcs, slowly taking back control from within because Thrall's decided to accept Warlocks.. (Go lore failures! ¬_¬)
6. As Mr. Peasent said, they are not solely using Arance magic to feed their addiction from a lore perspective. Weilding and using magic is enough for them, but with the obvious ability to drain and consume the mana of their enemies in order to replenish themselves. The difference between now and succumbing to their addiction? Well the Wretched serve as the example of that, from your description you're implying they're already at that stage of will end up their soon enough, where as in fact, that's exactly what they are not becoming as long as they don't let their addiction overwhelm and take over them.
7. Certainly likely. It's where that path always leads.. You mess with Arcance, you screw up your brain and go insane. ;)
8. Oh.. the amazingly knowledgable Drsyc >_>; What he meant to say i'm sure is, the lore was created to supplement gameplay balance needs as with 90% of the Warcraft lore. The lore is the lore, regardless of how or why it was made.

Basically as Ragestorm said. Blizzard's done what they've done. Doesn't matter why, doesn't matter how. It's done, and dislike of it doesn't change what it is. --User:Zeal/Sig 22:47, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Zeal, regarding no. 4, I disagree. It sort of depends whether you see it from a deontological or a teloeological point of view. As far as the blood elves are concerned, the ends (satisfying their need for magic to survive) justifies the means (consuming magic of others).

And on a separate note, I noticed spells like Starshard (Night Elf Priest racial) are also considered arcane. Does this mean that not all arcane spells are demonic in nature or is it simply in-game limitations? mr. peasant 0914, 8 February 2007 (GMT)

Numerous comment by numerous Blizzard reps in numerous situations confirm that certain spell damages are due to game mechanics and have no impact in lore. In other words, Starshards (and any other Night elf spell that does arcane damage) is not an arcane spell lore-wise. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:48, 8 February 2007 (EST)

1. I distincly remember a blood elf questgiver saying the light resists them. I'll try to find a source
2. Indeed it seems to be inspired blood elves in outland to steal druidic magic as evidenced by High Botanist Freywinn
3. The army of light is the alliance. The horde is not allowed to join,Naaru blatantly ignore horde,they wouldn't give a damn if all orcs died off. Besides the races of the Army of light(the alliance) wouldn't even accept the tauren. Fordragon ordered the death of blighcaller(an old friend of his) for being dead he'd sooner die then accept the forsaken. The horde does not follow the light and fought with the draenei and the alliance,and the naaru in Exodar are not at all friendly to horde. If they did care about horde races,then they would have told the draenei not to fight the horde instead they seem to encourage as evidenced by the fact that Naaru in Exodar are hostile to horde. The scryeys are probably only there so when they turn into demons due to the demonic they put in themselves. They'll be surrounded by Naaru and the aldor. They probably secret support the aldor. Face it Naaru don't like the horde and would never let them into their army of light.
4. Cm's work at blizzard they know what their talking about. Actually on the collectors addition dvd,the tone of voice Metzen used when describing blood elves seemed to imply that they were evil and hinted they would get their comeuppance. He seemd to be excited about the draenei but didn't like the blood elves at all. Which proves my theory that the expansion simply forgot about horde and was too excited about its precious alliance.
5. Actually they only fight Kael because he betrayed them. Otherwise they would be fighting with him. Thrall accepting warlocks makes little sense but it makes more sense then Thrall letting in the ancient enemy of the horde,composed entirely of warlocks,with decaying souls to boot.
6. All blood elves have an gross amount of energy in them. The fact that they have the same eyes as Doomguards and dreadlords just tells that their all beyond redeemption. All blood elves use demonic energy to sate themselves,those green crystals in their cities are composed of demonic energy for them to defile themselves with.
7. Yup
8. Somethings are only in the game for balance like Druids having Arcane. Blood knights being allowed Shattar is one of those things.

I agree with you there whats done is done. Horde is now evil. I also happen to know the person who made this assine theory,he wasn't even a fan of the horde,infact the moron thought Darkspear trolls were evil. I can say without a tinge of uncertainty that every single blood knight is copmletly evil. Blood elves don't desire love or acceptance,they view charity,altruism, and sympathy as weaknesses. Belgrom in Orgimmar fell in love in with a blood elf against his better judgement,she was merely using him and killed his comrades. They disgustingly exploited the horde's sympathy and charity for them while they don't plan to reform and merely want to use them as meatsheilds. Its ludicrous to try and deny that blood elves are evil. Blood elves are in the horde so we can evil elves that lonely men can masturbate over. Nothing you say can change this. Angry ogre

1. Please do.
2. Aye.
3. The Alliance is not the army of light. I've never seen it say this, or anyone associated with Blizzard say this. I didn't realize this was the angle you were taking. Yes it is a step towards it, but the Alliance did not instantly become the army of light, there are plenty of thee alliance, who do not adopt or follow the light, more than those who do in fact. The Naaru that we've seen do not directly interveen, so they would not stop the Draenei from doing what they decide. They only offer guidance and support when asked. The hostility of the Exodar is a game mechanic.
4. Rofl, there is plenty of times they've had no clue what they are talking about. I think you're just being biased here, i picked up the tone expected for what was going with each race, nothing more.
5. None of that is accurate or true. He has not actually betrayed anyone, only failed his people in the eyes of his people.
6. One again, that is the common form it takes, but not the only. They haven't gone over the edge yet.
7. N/A
8. But it doesn't void the lore. What is done is done. Adding them as a faction there is a major story point that supports the rest, it was created for a game mechanic, but it's result is new lore. Nothing less.

I don't know how true your story about the theory is, but it is irrelevent, as it does have some ground to stand on, even if it's creater was an idiot, it's out of his hands now and taken on by others. Only place i have a lack of certaintity of evil is the Farstriders, the rangers of Silvermoon.. their lore is lacking, we don't know the details of how they deal with addiction, as they never were as close to magic as the rest. Irregardless, you should not judge on a few examples of evil people, otherwise all races could be judged thus, but instead their actions as a whole. I don't wish to change this keep in mind, merely wanted to debunk some of your points. I honestly don't beleive the theory and do consider it ill concieved throughout as most theories i read. --User:Zeal/Sig 20:16, 8 February 2007 (EST)

It's clear that nobody's opinion is going to be changed, so let's end this now: I'll add a note saying that the theory has holes. If any biased comments make it into the articles, they will be removed. And Angry ogre, you make one more "Horde and/or Blood elves are evil" edit, you will be banned. Otherwise, contribute and discuss as needed. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:10, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Since no one really believes in the matyr theory anyway. I'm moving on to a discussion of the naaru. http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Naaru Angry ogre

Does a martyr have to die, or just sacrifice himself in some way or have a personal loss for another?--SWM2448 21:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Technically a martyr does have to die for the cause- that's the definition. However, the word is often used for someone who sacrifices something for a cause. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Reaction

In the condition that a member of the Alliance comes in and kills the blood elves sapping M'uru, how does he respond? Does he kill any Horde players that come in the room? Or does he just kinda... stand... erm... float... there...? Hordesupporter 22:27, 18 February 2007 (EST)

Well he can't be intereacted with by Horde players in his current state, so i assume nothing happens. No idea if the Blood Elves sapping him are interactable either. --User:Zeal/Sig 04:35, 19 February 2007 (EST)

It would be difficult to know the answer as to whether the blood elves in the room with him are interactable, as when a raid of one faction enters the racial capital of another faction they head straight for the cities racial leader, and generally don't bother with other sections of the city. Hordesupporter 02:47, 5 March 2007 (EST)

On the paladin forums it was stated that a raid managed to break into silvermoon and kill the guys channeling M'uru, but nothing much happened. M'uru just floated there. I think he reacts as a friendly green to Alliance players, but I don't recall anything specific being said in that thread. I've lost the link for it though, but it should be there if you search for it. I don't have the time to do that now though, I'll add it later if no-one else does. :-/ Hemical 07:25, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Here we go! http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=69643530&postId=695863247&sid=1#11 Hemical 07:44, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

And I was wrong, A slightly edited quote from http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=70848105&postId=707418094&sid=1#12 : "[The magisters binding M'uru] were actually killed on beta. One dude trained the guards/class trainer back out into the city while a 70 rogue walked around and ganked the drainers. Naaru didn't do anything, and was in fact red/hostile to the alliance too." Hemical 07:48, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Naaru Life Cycle

Just a litle speculation, but I read on the Naaru page that the naaru have a life-cycle that goes from light, to darkness, then rebirth as light. Maybe M'uru is red/black due to old age, which is why it was easily subdued by Kael's supporters? It came up in one of my filthy arrogant bloodelfadin's Arrpee sessions when his wind was taken out of his sails by some wise old grunt. Hemical 07:44, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

If M'uru dies quickly enough that the Magister's can't cut off the power siphoning, it could really mess up the Blood Knights, perhaps killing them or turning them into something similar to Death Knights. There's no way this would happen in-game, but it could happen between World of Warcraft and the next Warcraft game (whenever that is). -- Gordon Ecker 21:03, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Power

This page mentions that Kael'thas could not have subdued M'uru if his level of power was on par with someone like Azshara or Sargereas, well, I can believe that with Sargereas, but Azshara... remember that Kael is no pushover, expecially when it comes to magical power, granted he probably isn't on par with someone like Azshara, should Kael and his blood elves fight Azshara, the will probably lose, but Azshara is going to at least take significant damage as well. Hordesupporter 20:24, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

True, perhaps. The section in questions isn't trying to say that a demigod could twitch and they would be repulsed- the section is saying that Kael and a blood elf strike force isn't enough to subdue a demigod (or naaru, if this is the individual power level). It's also heavily hinted that Azshara is much more powerful than Mannoroth, possibly even more powerful than Archimonde, making her about on par with Kil'jaeden (who is the one that the section references, not Sargeras).--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:10, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

I see... just pointing out theat little fact. Hordesupporter 23:58, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

What I would like to know is, if M'uru voluntarily submitted to capture, would it matter how powerful he he is? If he was as powerful as a god but he wanted to be taken prisoner, he would hold back his full strength.Kraas 11:25, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Technically, it matters in the debate of whether he submitted or not- if he is as powerful as Azshara or one of them, then he probably did allow himself to be. If he's only as powerful as the average dragon or hero, then it could go either way. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:05, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

My own personal feeling is that he is very powerful, otherwise the Blood Knights wouldn't be a force of any consequence. If naaru weren't that strong, it seems to me that they would need a number of them (definitely more than just one) to siphon from in order to get enough energy to create a powerful order of holy warriors.

Sign your posts, please. That's also due to a lack of information about the nature of the Naaru: is M'uru's personal power being drained, or are greater powers of the light being stolen through him? It's a question not answered. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:20, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

Considering the amount of Blood Knights (i'm refering to blood knight npc's, not player characters) it seems more likly in my opinion that their using M'uru as a "gateway" of some sort to tap into the light. Hordesupporter 17:16, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

Perhaps the fact the Kael'thas has a Phoenix God in is living room in the Eye could help clarify that. M'uru could easily be on that level, with all the Blood Elf strikeforce and the Phoenix God being what it would take to subdue him. That said, I have my doubts as to him being a martyr simply on the grounds that using him to create Blood Knights was not the original plan. The original plan was for him to be consumed by the elves of Silvermoon as a short term way to slake the addiction. Than Magister Bloodsworn got the bright idea to turn him into a longterm source of Holy Power. The question is whether M'uru would have known this was going to happen. Meneldir

If he is a martyr, then I guess once he realized what they were going to do to him (sap him to create the blood knights) he decided to make the most of his situation. Hordesupporter 01:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You do realise...

Kael=Boss lvl M'uru=73...just saying. BTW I think m'uru and Oro need boss lvl, but for now well we can only be so sure.

Sign your posts, please. As of yet, there is little indication that levels directly tie to lore power. So far, everything has been game mechanics for what works according to what has been released when. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:59, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Why that? I might seem "Stupid, but if one were to kill M'uru, then the Blood Knights would Collapse. Horde/Blood Elves won't kill him, since that'll destroy some of their military Ideals, and why wojuld Alliance players kill a Naaru, considering their favor of the Draenei? Adding a Boss level would seem Obsolete.--User:basher1200

Powers

Seeing that the Blood Knights all of them Siphon power from him, It is possible that he is in a weakened state, That he may have came there under the intentions of showing them the light but failed and was shackled down...

A Study in Power

The quest follow up to "The First Trial" sends paladins to Magister Astalor Bloodsworn, next to M'uru: http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=9681. Bloodsworn states that M'uru is a "gift" from Kael'thas. More importantly, he also says that M'uru "begrudges us its power," making clear that M'uru is there unwillingly; debating whether or not it is a martyr is irrelavent. M'uru is still alive. User:Sean/Sig 14:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)