Talk:Kil'jaeden/Lore

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Some fans have debated as to whether Kil'jaeden or Archimonde is the greater of the two. These primary arguments for Archimonde as the stronger were posed recently. Counterarguments (for Kil'jaeden not being any inferior) are in italics (Counterarguments for these are bracketed in italics).

Position

Kil'jaeden was chosen to seek out the "darkest races" in the universe, while Archimonde was chosen to lead the armies of the demonic Burning Legion. This was so even after the banishment of Sargeras to the Abyss at the death of Medivh. That Archimonde maintained his position of military power was proof of his ability to wield demonic magics better than any of the other eredar, including Kil'jaeden. The initial choice may have been based on intellectual ability- Kil'jaeden's role was as important as Archimonde's, and Archimonde's postion simply means that he has more skill as a field commander, or that deception is Kil'jaeden's stronger suit.

Role in the Second Invasion

While Kil'jaeden took a backseat in the second invasion of the Burning Legion, Archimonde carried on to raze the entire city of Dalaran to the ground single-handedly and subsequently led his armies to nearly defeat the entirety of the combined legions of night elves, humans and orcs. While this might be true, we have never seen Kil'jaeden's powers in practice. As stated, Archimonde's army gained strength from him being commander. Such a force, regardless of their leader, is a one to be reckoned with, and their near-success is probably not an indication of their leader's power, but the entire Legion's potential for destruction.

Defiler's End

Archimonde required the full primal fury of the World Tree and countless night elves' ancestral spirits to finally be able to defeat him. Again, we have never seen Kil'jaeden utilize his powers- for all we know, only the Aspects or Elune herself could vanquish him. (A counterargument for this would be that if Kil'jaeden had been so powerful, he would probably have attempted to destroy the Frozen Throne himself, and not call upon the cunning and powerful half-demon Illidan to do the work.)

Legion's "Defeat"

Even though Kil'jaeden had remained alive after the Battle of Mount Hyjal, the Burning Legion was considered to have been "defeated" at the death of Archimonde. To be technical, it was- the Legion was defeated within the confines of Azeroth- no one maintains illusions that the Legion actually ended their Crusade in general. (Yet, such a defeat despite Kil'jaeden remaining alive and present in Azeroth would mean Kil'jaeden did not have the means to continue this Invasion, thus implying that Archimonde had been the stronger of the two.)

The Threat

Despite what others might say, Kil'jaeden was not considered as much a threat as Archimonde during second invasion. Largely because he was not present in Azeroth at any point during the Invasion- actual invasion was the job of Archimonde, and Kil'jaeden had fulfilled his role in the Invasion by creating the Horde, and later, the Scourge. (Yet if he had been more powerful than Archimonde, surely he would have chosen himself to be the one who gets to drain the World Tree's energies for himself instead of letting a 'weaker' Archimonde have it. One must note that both had not expected Archimonde's fall in the end; Kil'jaeden mentioned that the consumption of the Skull of Guldan sealed their defeat in that world, but it might then again be a deception so that Illidan would fear his vengeance upon him and thus act quickly to destroy Nerzhul)

The Lich King

While Archimonde just only had to snatched the reigns of the undead from the Lich King, after his death, Kil'jaeden had to deceive Illidan into destroying the Frozen Throne for him. Actually, their goals were completely separate. Archimonde removed command and gave it to the Dreadlords as a practicality for invasion- the Lich King was a moot point. Kil'jaeden was actually trying to destroy Ner'zhul, and the greatly depleted Dreadlord presence on Azeroth was not enough, while Illidan's lust for magic (and the powers of the Skull of Gul'dan) provided an excellent pawn for the destruction of a loose cannon.

Let's open the debate!

Please continue to discuss and debate below:

Rank

As stated in the official Warcraft history on the Blizzard page, Kil'jaeden had authority over Archimonde. It is stated that Archimonde led the invasion into Azeroth "Under orders from Kil'jaeden himself." Given the treacherous nature of demons in general, don't you think that if Archimonde had the ability, he would have killed Kil'jaeden and taken control of the Legion himself? GenMalSis

The same argument can apply to Kil'jaeden: Why Kil'daeden did not kill Archimonde and take full control of the legion pior to the Second invasion. I think Archimonde led the invasion into Azeroth " under order from Kil'jaeden himself" as Kil'jaeden planned the invasion. The invasion by Archimonde is just the next step in the plan after the creation of the Scourge. Kil'jaeden was in charge of the special misson. A 'First time failure of a invasion' pretty much falls under special mission. Thus under the charge of Kil'jaeden.LoreFanBoy 04:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Warcraft RPG

I'm no expert on pen and paper RPGs, but I saw on a site that Kil'jaeden has a significantly higher challenge rating in the Warcraft RPG than Archimonde. Archimonde's challenge rating is 50, while that of Kil'jaeden is 59. I know that challenge ratings aren't 100% indicative of who is more powerful, but I would assume that a difference that large must mean something. GenMalSis

If you bothered to check more carefully: Grom Hellscream had a CR of 20++ while Mannoroth had a CR of 40++. The diffirence in CR is much higher but Grom Hellscream was able to slay Mannoroth? CR rates mean Challenge Rate which means the difficulty a player would have in facing the said INDIVISUAL. Example : A monster of a CR of 100 would be alot more difficlut to deafeat than a monster of say CR 50. Thats all it means. CR has no relevence to whos more powerful.

Kil'jaeden vs. The Lich King

It has been stated several times that if Kil'jaeden were as powerful as Archimonde he would have destroyed the Lich King himself. What people who make these arguments seem to forget is how hard it is to summon a being of that power into Azeroth. Let's assume that Kil'jaeden is roughly the same power as Archimonde (not that big of an assumption). In order to summon Archimonde, Kel'thuzad, himself a being of tremendous power, had to die and be reborn as a lich. Arthas and Kel'thuzad then had to retrieve the Book of Medivh, a powerful magical artifact, and bring it to a specially prepared summoning circle in Dalaran, a nexus of powerful magical energies. Once everything had been prepared it still took a lengthy ritual to actually summon him. Considering that the Lich King is no longer supplying servants for the Legion and most of the Legion's servants on Azeroth are dead, Kil'jaeden is unable to make his way into Azeroth. It's very possible that if he were able to come to Azeroth, he destroy the Lich King himself, so him not killing Ner'zhul himself isn't an indication of his power. GenMalSis

But Kil'jaeden is present on Azeroth AND Draenor in The Frozen Throne, and seemingly came and went as he pleased. And since Illidan still feared his wrath, I doubt he was powerless whatever the explanation is. --Austin P 09:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, how could you not notice that? His only two appearances in game show him in places he should have to be summoned to, but apparently didn't have to. --Austin P 11:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

They could simply have been very powerful shadows; regardless, it's all but confirmed that Kil'jaeden is the most powerful demon around, barring Sargeras. Note that the conversations at the top of the page were made by someone who had some kind of pathological problem accepting Kil'jaeden's power. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The fact that KJ was slightly transparency on Azeroth might have been a hint that he wasn't actually there. :P Also, I don't recall much, but I think when he appeared in Outland, he had a smokey cloud underneath him, plus his image instantly vanished when he had finished his conversation with Illidan. --Raze 09:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)