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"as there is no sign of Neltharion in Night of the Dragon." - this line appears to be incorrect, as the last several paragraphs of the book are specifically regarding Deathwing and his continued existence. However, the comment might be intended to state that nobody inside of the fourth wall is aware of him. Should this maybe be reworded?02:24, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
THEY ARE EVIL? Edit
Why? They are chaotic, this is easily seen as they are try to break laws of time itself, but what they do? They stop some evil forces - Arthas, Medivh, etc. So, they more chaotic good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asdruabel (talk • contr).
- You're assuming that stopping evil forces is their direct intention, which it almost certainly isn't. If you extrapolate the results of their meddling, down any of the paths that they've tried to change history in, it almost inevitably results in a victory for the Burning Legion. Not to mention that they have a pretty clear interest in destroying time itself, which isn't a good thing by any stretch of the imagination. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:53, September 6, 2009 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't. Doing the "right thing" for the wrong reasons doesn't make you a hero. If I tried to kill Hitler not because of all the horrible things he did but simply because he owed me money, that wouldn't make me a hero. Illidan didn't care a wit about stopping the Scourge or saving Azeroth (he even said as much to Malfurion earlier). He was doing it purely because Kil'jaeden told him to, because he wanted the power Kil'jaeden promised and was scared of what Kil'jaeden would do if he failed. And on the original note, it seems highly unlikely that the Infinite Dragonflight are the righteous sort, trying to change the timeline to make it "better." The changes they're making to the timeline, however good they may seem, are to serve their own agenda, and I doubt their agenda is good for anyone but themselves. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:02, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
To Eroron: if thrall wouldn't have been freed, there would have been no horde during the battle at mount hyjal, and so the Burning Legion would have most likely won. TheSatyr (talk) 20:59, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
- The Bronze Dragonflight also explicitly states that without the mutual threat of the orcs from the opening of the Dark Portal, the nations of the Alliance would not have joined together and would instead have fallen into civil war. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:00, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
Why do you look on only one of these time changes? I think you must see them in one big context. First you got the Durnholde timeline. If Thrall hadn't escaped from Durnholde, the Horde wouldn't get founded. There wouldn't be the threat of the orcs and the Alliance could focus on the Scourge. So Kel'thuzad an Arthas may never conquered Dalaran and so they couldn't open the portal for Archimonde. ==> no Legion in Azeroth.
Second event: the Opening of the Dark Portal. If Medivh would killed, the Horde would never shattered Azeroth like they did. They wouldn't have set any feet on it. So the possible events above wouldn't matter cause there wouldn't be any orc witch could escape. ==> no Legion in Azeroth either. But the human nations would start civil wars, as already mentioned. But I think this is a point the Infinites doesn't care about ("Stupid mortals!")
Battle of Mount Hyjal would never exist if the events above would have take place like this. So you can ignore it.
Strahholme is more difficult point. Would the dreadlords be in Azeroth if the Legion wouldn't? Cause the only reason for Arthas to "clear" Strath is to "save" the people against the Scourge. But if Arthas hadn't done this - I think, this was the point in time where Arthas mutated into a kind of deathknight - he would be the King of Lordaeron now, the Champion of the humans and the Slayer of the Scourge. So he wouldn't raise Kel'thuzad again, wouldn't travel to Northrend and so would never try to summon Archimonde in Dalaran. ==> so, no Legion in Azeroth, like in the two points before.
When you look at the happenings like this, the Infinites try to avoid Azeroths contact with the Legion. So they are a better kind of protecters than the other dragonflights. But with there methods they destroy the time line, and this might make more trouble than the Legion itself.
- In response to your theories...
- Durnholde: The Alliance wasn't fighting the orcs that escaped from the internment camps; those orcs followed Thrall to Kalimdor. Thrall's death wouldn't prevent the Scourge's victory in Lordaeron, but his absence at Mount Hyjal would allow Archimonde to reach Nordrassil before the trap was ready. Legion victory in Azeroth.
- Black Morass: Yes, the orcs don't come through the Dark Portal. However, the Bronze Dragonflight EXPLICITLY says that the Legion would eventually have reached Azeroth anyway, simply through different means, and with the human nations at war with each other there would be no resistance. Legion victory in Azeroth.
- Stratholme: From someone who said not to look at a single event, you seem to have an extreme case of tunnel vision with this one. Your argument, essentially, is that Arthas never would have gone to Northrend and purely for that reason the Scourge would have failed. I disagree, because it's entirely possible that a different character would have taken up Frostmourne instead, perhaps Muradin or one of his followers (they were already there searching for it). You're also ignoring that not purging Stratholme means the Scourge gain a massive foothold in Lordaeron, much earlier, because the entire city becomes Scourge. With such a massive numbers advantage, there's a strong possibility that the Scourge would have succeeded even without Arthas's betrayal, raised Kel'Thuzad, and summoned Archimonde. But without Arthas telling Illidan about the Skull of Gul'dan, he never would have killed Tichondrius. The presence of Tichondrius at the Battle of Mount Hyjal could have been enough to tip the scales in Archimonde's favor, leading to - yet again - a Legion victory on Azeroth.
- Yes, Chrono Lord Deja entreats you to consider the consequences of Medivh's death, with the Dark Portal remaining closed, and the orcs never arriving... This is a deception. He's trying to convince you that they're right, but that doesn't mean they are right, or that they genuinely want to do good. Hell, in that same instance, Aeonus says, "The time has come to shatter this clockwork universe forever!" This is not consistent with wanting to protect Azeroth. Destroying time itself cannot possibly be anything but bad. In fact, it implies that the Infinite Dragonflight favor chaos over order... And what other major organization wants to bring chaos to the titans' ordered universe? I'll let you figure that one out on your own. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:48, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't want somebody to think that I'm a fan of the methods of the Infinites. I just pointed other aspects of the same topic out.
- But your conclusions are very good. Sure, I know what the Chrono Lords said. And I think the Legion got many many ways to conquer a world. But a portal is much easier and more comfortable than walking ;) Correct me, but weren't there troops at the ships the orcs captured? They trey to stop them. Okay, it was there job to do this. But I think the order came from a higher position. They didn't fight them directly, but I'm sure there were plans to hold the Orcs in Durnholde. To Muradin: he read the inscription of Frostmourne and stopped. Do you think he would capture it without Arthas? Just a question.
- But one last question still remains for me: - how does the Legion influence creatures that live between the time? Sargeras is mighty, but I don't think he's THAT mighty. If he would, why doesn't he do it alone?
- I still think that an Old God corrupted (or will corrupt) the Infinites and maybe even Nozdormu. They got the power to do this. And they got an aim to work on: their own freedom.--Numisel (talk) 18:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
--Please correct me if I'm wrong here but if there were no Orcs in Azeroth, there would be no Broxigar to go though the rift (War of the Ancients Novel) created by the Old Gods; only Krasus and maybe Rhonin (if he still exists) would enter. Without Brox and his axe forged by Cenarius, Sargeras surly would have entered Azeroth allowing the Old Gods to emerge and destroy everything.
- That's interesting, thanks. It's a bit complicated but that is a point for the Old Gods. If Thrall wouldn't escape from Durnholde, no Horde and no loyal Broxigar who would be sent to the Rift. And if there were no Orcs on Azeroth there couldn't be any orc go through the rift.
- Okay, Stratholme doesn't fit in that theory. But Strath could be part of a more obscured plan of the Old Gods. Maybe http://www.wowwiki.com/Obrahiim,_the_Traveler <--- this skeleton will find a forgotten ruin with runes to open the prison of the Old Gods or something like that. --Numisel (talk) 00:15, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
Sha Involvement? Edit
Wild, unfounded speculation based solely on conjecture: What if Nozdormu at some later point visited/will visit Pandaria and become infested with the Sha? I say this because the Infinites resemble Sha-touched creatures quite a bit, and they seem motivated largely by the fear of some future they alone have seen... WitherVoice (talk) 14:08, November 4, 2012 (UTC)