Talk:Illidan Stormrage

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Archived discussions: Talk:Illidan Stormrage/Archive 1, Talk:Illidan Stormrage/Archive 2 and Talk:Illidan Stormrage/Archive 3

Is He Blind?

In Illidan's quotes it says he's blind not deaf, and a demon hunter named Leotheras the Blind. Are they blind and if so are those goggle-like things things that make them blind? Mr.X8 02:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Demon hunters (Illidan included) are TECHNICALLY blind insofar as they no longer have eyes. They CAN see, though not in the same way as everything else does. It's more of a magical "sense" than actual sight, and enables them to more easily find demonic presences. They tend to cover their eyes so that people don't get freaked out by seeing burned-out sockets in their faces. Illidan is unique from other demon hunters, though, in that his special sight (and the destruction of his eyes) was a "gift" from Sargeras himself. Not only his his magical sight far more potent and accurate than other demon hunters, but a burning green light emanates from his empty sockets. This light also tends to shine through his blindfold. - Dark T Zeratul 02:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Demon Hunter. Go. Read. Pzychotix 02:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but they do have eyes, they have merely blinded them. Regards, --Theron the Just 22:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

"Ritually blind themselves" could mean anything from the complete removal of the eyes to the damaging of the lens- even if the eyes are there, they are useless as a normal means of sight, which amounts to the same thing as having no eyes at all. Why are we even having this conversation? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Because people like to nitpick? Having no eyes doesn't equal having eyes that are blind (especially in real-life). Something is definetely glowing under the eye masks, and as it hasn't even been implied that they would have literally had their eyes pulled out (all the demon hunter Lore says is that they have ritually blinded themselves and they are blind, not that they would have had their eyes pulled out) it is fun to let your thoughts wonder. No matter. Regards, --Theron the Just 08:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Well Illidan at the very least has no eyes. Since the other demon hunters base their skills and abilities off of him, I'm guessing that the ritual is somewhat similar to what Sargeras did to Illidan, which involved burning his eyes out of his skull. - Dark T Zeratul 06:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That's likely the case, but they can't replicate exactly the sort of sight Sargeras gave him. Where is it written that they model themselves off Illidan? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In the Alliance Player's Guide, it says about demon hunters that "As part of the ceremony to become a demon hunter, the initiate burns out her eyes with a magic blade to entrap a demonic essence within her body. Most demon hunters then bind their mutilated eyes with strips of cloth.

In return for this sacrifice, the demon hunter gains the ability to see the world without vision-creatures are visible as dimly glowing forms against a gray and murky background. Demonic energy blazes like burning pitch in the night; the demon hunter sees and recognizes it easily."

This doesn't sound like the descriptions of Illidan's sight in "The Sundering". The way it's described there is that he can see the same way he did before, but his senses are fair more acute and he can now see magical energies. --Austin P 12:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ummm...and just to follow up the above with a little side note: I have the artbook for TBC special edition, and on one of the Illidan design pages is a side note: "Demon Hunters carve out their eyes so that they are not distracted by visions of the real world, allowing them to see demon energy". While it is true that Sargeras burned out Illi's eyes in order for him to see with the eyes of a titan (ie magical energies), other demon hunters seem to take a slightly different route....if no less painful. Of course, Blizzard hardly has a track record for perfectly flawless lore (who does?), so the artist working in the computer animation department might have gotten it wrong, but still, seems pretty accurate for demon hunter rituals. --Daughter of Sargeras 23:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Ilidan is probably not blind wering the sash on his eyes may think he-s blind but if he didn't had it he could see normaly, just a speculation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DarckArchon (talk · contr).

Please read the article before saying things like this. First off, Illidan has no eyes, because they were burned out of his skull by Sargeras. Second, he "sees" things by sensing magic, also a result of the aforementioned eye-burning. The blindfold has nothing to do with his "blindness," and is merely there so that others don't have to be treated to the sight of the hideously scarred mass of burnt flesh and exposed bone surrounding his empty eye sockets. -- Dark T Zeratul 10:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Memorable Quotes: Illidan's Death

Stop effin deleting Illidan's dying speech! ~ Peregrine

TY for that Spoiler Alert there Sandiwchman ~ Peregrine

That should negate the DNP on spoilers. :)--SWM2448 21:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

My only qualm is that putting it down on the page like that gives the idea that Illidan is permanently dead in lore, when we don't know that for sure. —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 22:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Wiki documents, not "give ideas". Illidan says it? Then by all means it have right to be there. --Rowaasr13 05:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Um... we kill him in WoW. Yes, yes, you can say "just because he's dead in WoW doesn't mean he's dead in lore, after all you die hundreds of times"... but the WarCraft saga is chronological by game. For instance, people that are dead at the end of WC2 are DEAD, like, FOREVER, same with WC3, and, invariably, WoW. Come the next WarCraft game, Illidan will be dead, trust me. Which makes me sad :( ~ Peregrine

I don't know if you've noticed, but WoW is in a different format than the previous Warcraft games. If every quest was official, than the world would be at peace because nearly every threat would be cleared out. But is it? No. Do quests necessarily affect the surrounding area? No.

Oh, and that statement about how characters killed in the previous game stay dead? Not true either. Medivh is killed in Warcraft: Orcs and Humans but came back in Warcraft 3. Deathwing and Teron Gorefiend are killed in the Alliance campaign in BTDP, but they came back. Mogor the ogre is technically killed at the beginning of the Orc campaign in BTDP, but came back in The Burning Crusade. In Warcraft 3, Ballador the Bright and Baelgun are killed during missions, but they're stated to be alive in RPG books. Maiev was said to have been killed in several RPG books, but she was brought back. Oh, and let's not forget Balnazzar, who was killed, BUT BROUGHT BACK. --Austin P 22:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Good gods. If you don't want to put the quote because it's written elsewhere or because of spoiler issues, fine. I can't tell you how sick I am of the "Illidan can't die!" thing. We don't know if Medivh or even flippin' Archimode is still alive, but that doesn't do anything! --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The deaths of all mentioned characters are explained. For exmaple, Aeqwynn used the last of her powers to bring back Medivh, which is how he is alive in WarCraft III. Deathwing's "death" is later revealed to have been nothing but a ruse in Day of the Dragon. Teron Gorefiend is resurrected by YOU, and as for Maiev... that was nothing but Blizzard changing their mind after the fact. Which is alright, because you don't actually see Maiev's death in-game. They just say so in RPG books. However, since the players will have to personally kill Illidan, with a 25-man raid group, after going through the Black Temple, there is no way Blizzard will be able to say "well, changed our mind"... unless they make up some story about how it was some sort of avatar of Illidan, meanwhile Illidan himself was miles away or something.

Well, he is half-demon... possibly immortal? -Whatariot34

Bottom line, all the games follow the storyline of WoW, and if Illidan dies in WoW, he dies in lore, just like Onyxia, Nefarian, Gruul, etc, the presumed death of C'Thun, and the banishement of Ragnaros back to the elemental plane. ~ Peregrine

I find myself in agreement. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Aegwynn came in later. Originally, in Warcraft III, he just came back with no explanation whatsoever. Day of the Dragon, it is not specified that Deathwing's death was what was seen in BTDP, as Draenor and the circumstances surrounding his disappearance aren't explained. And I couldn't help but notice that you ignored several of my examples of characters coming back. And I've yet to see any proof that Blizzard is under any obligation to make every single quest official, and you've failed to explain why the world doesn't change if all quests are official. All I see are a bunch of assumptions. You've also contradicted yourself by proving my point that characters can come back, and it's not necessarily explained well either. --Austin P 20:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

To clarify something, I'm not saying Illidan will never die. It's a good possibility that he will, but it's not quite a sure thing. Even if his death is confirmed as official, I wouldn't bet money on him staying dead given the powers at work in Warcraft. --Austin P 21:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

When I think of a character dying and then "just coming back" I think of somebody dying and then all of a sudden they're back in the action, and no explanation is offered. Even before Aegwynn was added into the Medivh storyline, we can assume some mystical power pulled him back from quotes like "I came back to ensure that there would be a future". I can neither deny nor comfirm the deaths of Mogor, Baelgun, and Ballador, as I, in all honesty, have no idea who they are (aside from Mogor, but I haven't read about his death). As for Deathwing's death, no, that is not confirmed to have been his death in BTDP, however it is the only explanation that fits, and Blizzard would hardly pass up a way to explain Deathwing's "death" as a ruse, to use him later. ~ Peregrine

Just because a character says "I came back" doesn't give any indication as to how they came back. That's also pretty much what happened at the end of The Last Guardian, he was killed, and came back with no explanation or a very vague explanation. In regards to Deathwing, it would make sense for them to be referring to the Alliance mission where you kill him, but a person shouldn't just assume that they know what a company would and wouldn't do. Just look at the people saying that Blizzard wouldn't kill off Illidan because of how popular he is. --Austin P 08:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Bottom line, all the games follow the storyline of WoW, and if Illidan dies in WoW, he dies in lore, just like Onyxia, Nefarian, Gruul, etc, the presumed death of C'Thun, and the banishement of Ragnaros back to the elemental plane."

To be fare in published lore, the only thing that has chronologically moved forward beyond WoW to "lock down" any events was the TBC manual... and TBC just builds upon WoW quests.

No other source of lore has actually gone beyond WoW yet, or even locked down any major events let alone any of the more mundane quest lines :p...

APG, HPG, and MG have locked down a few events from WoW, and even made reference to blood elves soon joining the Horde (locking its somewhere near the beginning of TBC, just before Rise of the Horde's framing story). Yet, none of the major events have occured yet, Lady Prestor is still in charge of Stormwind (no great Onyxia battle had occured yet), Neltharion is still a threat, he's still making his chromatic flight, the gates of Ahn Qiraj haven't opened, the Qiraji still haven't escaped (Brann barely even seems to know about the history of Ahn Qiraj, and may not have even gone inside yet, and yet he's already talking about going to Outland), the scourge invasion hasn't happened yet, etc.

Its kinda of annoying, but it would imply that all of those major events would have to have occured all in the same month or two, just before TBC... I somewhat doubt that next book Dark Factions is going to move into TBC terroritory yet either, with the knowledge that apparently it devotes a section to the chromatic flight.

If the books finally do catch up with TBC time frame and many of those events still haven't occured it would support the idea that events in WoW don't occur over the same two years covered the introduction movies, but also occurs across timeline before and beyond.Baggins 15:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Just because a character says "I came back" doesn't give any indication as to how they came back."

That may be true, bit it still means that in the storyline, in lore, something caused him to come back, as opposed to Blizzard going "You know... we kinda liked him, let's just pretend he never died." ~ Peregrine

"It was only a flesh wound."

In anycase they have hinted at the survival of Deathwing since his "demise" in Outland since Manual of Monsters and Shadows & Light, and even a reference in Alliance Player's Guide I thinkBaggins 16:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, just trying to think here...the storyline would put Day of the Dragon AFTER Deathwing went into the Dark Portal... hm, but Lothar was alive in DotD, so it must have been before... okay, so ftm Deathwing is "dead", although he could have pulled yet another trick... lol wouldn't it be funny if I was flying around Outland and all of a sudden I critted for 30000 dmg by Deathwing... ~ Peregrine

I'm pretty certain Lothar wasn't mentioned in DotD. Officially, Day of the Dragon takes place after all events from BTDP. --Austin P 16:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Ya in all the verious versions of the timelines DotD is set after Warcraft II & expansion. I think it was discussed in Shadows and Light, of his defeat, and return from Outland, and events of DotD.(the info is split across several different character articles).Baggins 17:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit:Ya, I just checked, the Alleria article discusses the battle with Deathwing in outland (only an off-hand mention), the post-Dark Portal, DotD events are discussed in the Krasus and Rhonin articles, there is some additional material in Deathwing's own article. The book is very unclear how he escaped back to Azeroth inbetween Dark Portal and DotD however, as far as I can tell.Baggins 17:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

oh, woops, you are correct, Lothar isnt mentioned in DotD, I was thinking of The Last Guardian. Wow, I'm brain farts incarnate. ~ Peregrine

- I had a theory myself. Illidan does seem to die, but his Death speach seemed a little... off for someone who was insane didn't it? Given his condition, wouldn't Illidan sound likely to try to fight his death rather than give in and simply die? I'm not sure and I won't deny the chance he's dead, but what if at some point in the next expansion it is revealed it was a trick? I mean Illidan has many enemies and would have reason to fake his death would he not?

I'm not saying he's not dead, but I thought of it and thought "Hey, what if..?" After all, I got to thinking of how cool it'd be if during the fight with Arthas Illidan appeared trying to even up the score with the Lich King. --Bloodtom

His speech sounded very much like the non-insane Illidan, so that is viable evidence. And no, it wouldn't be cool if Illidan helped out during the Lich King fight, it would be a sad cop-out on Blizzard's part, giving in to those whining fans who are under the delusion that Illidan is the greatest fantasy character ever. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Illidan's fans are starting to develop a Raistlin complex... - Aladara 03:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, don't knock us whiny Illidan fans, I still say killing Illidan like that is the dumbest thing Blizzard has done since mote farming. ~Peregrine

You've not quite crossed the boundary into whiny, Peregrine. You're still firmly in the "annoys the Head Bookkeeper" category, but to be "whiny," you have to advocate Illidan to the psychotic degree without outward vandalism. The degree to which you've advocated Illidan is "heavily" not "psychotic." --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I like Illidan quite a lot! I think his death was warranted, though... now if Blizzard would just not pull a Majordomo with Kael (who is my favorite character), I will be more than satisfied. - Aladara 01:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Mote farming is awesome!--SWM2448 20:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I always thought Drizzt ( or, you know, Sephiroth ) fans were worse...never even knew Raistlin was so popular up until now. *shrug* --Super Bhaal 21:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

KEK, am I that annoying? Like I even have to ask ;) hehe ~ Peregrine

Absolutely, Raistlin fans can be downright rabid. It's the tragic hero complex. - Aladara 01:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hold on! I'm probably a bit late to weigh in on the dead/alive debate, but I noticed some here have accepted that Illidan is officially dead because he is killable in WoW. That makes no sense as plenty of other characters can be killed such as Thrall, Sylvannas, Lord Kazzak etc, who have obviously survived. They may or may not be dead as far as I'm concerned, different timelines exist in the same universe here. Until they make WC4 nothing is set in stone. --Raze 04:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

While you're technically right, I point out, for the 2,978th time that Thrall, Sylvanas and other factions are only killable as part of the PvP system, and MUST be treated differently than deaths required for quests or quest-given raid content. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to be rude, but that hasn't been pointed out at all in this particular discussion. :)

In response to it, you're probably right about PVP deaths. In my mind, the battle would officially still be raging in Alterac Valley with neither Drek'thar or Vanndar dead. PVE deaths are still open for interpretation tho. --Raze 14:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the major difference is there is actually a quest that tells you to go kill Illidan which means Blizzard wants that in the storyline... whereas if you just go off and kill a faction leader, its just something you DO... although now I think about it that still wouldnt cover the millions of times NPC's have been killed in Alterac Valley... I think the most accurate response is that PvP deaths dont change anything, which is, if you think about it, kind of sucky.

Ah well. We still get to pwn up shammies, so it all balances out in the end I guess. ~Peregrine

Actually I mentioned Drak'thar and Vanndar because there are quests specifically to kill them. But if either one was officially dead, it would also mean that one side has taken control of the valley, which wouldn't happen. --Raze 15:46, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, both Alliance and Horde gets the same quest. So what will it say in the lore? He can't have been killed twice. --Odolwa 11:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it wasn't technically either faction who killed him. I think the lore is wrapped up nicely in this case. - Aladara 12:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you wanted to finalize the lore, it would be easy, given the ending of RoC, to say that separate Alliance and Horde agents teamed up (even though nothing of the sort actually happened). Technically, the two aren't at war at all, lore-wise, it's just that "tensions have risen."--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought that they are now in an unofficial state of war. No organised armies marching into each other's cities, just, killing each other whenever we see each other. Meh, doesn't matter. I just want to know if Illidan is "Confirmed Kill". If it is a confirm kill, I believe Illidan may return in the Emerald Dream. He might do a "Sephiroth" and "Never be a Memory". --Invin Dranoel 05:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

To confirm, in the "Lands of Mystery/Conflict" RPG books, there are numerous places where the factions either get along or ignore each other, and there are a few noted diplomats in some of the cities. So it's mainly isolated incidents that find the Horde and Alliance at each other's throat. --Austin P 20:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"but the WarCraft saga is chronological by game. For instance, people that are dead at the end of WC2 are DEAD, like, FOREVER, same with WC3, and, invariably, WoW. Come the next WarCraft game, Illidan will be dead, trust me. Which makes me sad"

Actually, not quite, there have been many instances where a character said to have been killed, or required to be killed by mission objectives in previous games only to return in later games or other books in the series. Magtheridon for once, Maiv as well, Baelgun Flamebeard, even Deathwing. Just because you as a player have to kill these characters in game doesn't mean they have truly died as far lore. Retcons can always state they were just "defeated".Baggins 00:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I already pointed all of that out, Baggins. :/--Austin P 16:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Resurrection. --File:IconSmall Deathknight.gifBuraisu (Talk · Contr) 19:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Who ever said that there WILL be a Wracraft 4? If Blizzard does that, it can't continue World of Warcraft, whichis much more popular than the RTS's. Anyway, according to your argument, Ragestorm, even if they DO make a fourth installment, everyone will be dead! Even Arthas and Thrall and Jaina!Swiftstar 20:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)Swiftstar

I would like to point something out: The characters made by players of WoW do not exist in lore! Blizzard would never allow a bunch of characters with dumb names like Buttkick and BloodyDead to exist in lore. And if they did, then nearly every quest in-game would be done a hundred times over. Characters made by players simply cannot exist. And if they can't exist, then Illidan can't be killed by them. Now, if all the players did exist in lore, then Illidan would be made unkillable. I am sure of this. Do you think that Illidan would have so much history behind him, such a large part in lore, if his ultimate fate was to be cut down by a bunch of players from Earth? I should think not! I am certain that the only reason that Illidan is killable in-game is for the fun of players. However, if Blizzard wishes something else to be done in WoW, such as Ragnaros being defeated and banished back to the elemental plane, or the gates of Ahn'Qiraj being opened, then they are capable of easily writing something like In the years of war between the Horde and the Alliance, many heroes and adventurers emerged from all races. Between them many adversaries fell, including Ragnaros, the Firelord, who was banished back to the molten core in the elemental plane. It would be easy for them to get rid of loose ends or spur on the story by doing that, and it would be perfectly justified. But for now I am sure that Illidan is safe. However, if you want him to die, then all you need do is bring Kil'jaeden back into the picture. It is known that Illidan prepares for his wrath, and plans to defeat him. But will he succeed? --Mesethusela 06:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Blizzard refers to the players in the story actually but while your character itself is not mentioned Blizzard just labels the group that defeated them as a group of heroes. For example in future stories Blizzard would put Illidan was defeated by Akama, Maiev and a group of heroes. Illidan is defeated and gone he won't be back. Leviathon 06:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did mention the group of heroes thing in the italic text. And Blizzard saying that Illidan is defeated by a group of heroes along with Maiev Shadowsong and Akama... I mentioned that in it too, though I said that I thought that would happen to other characters, such as Ragnaros. But I seriously doubt that it would happen to Illidan. Take into account, would you, that Illidan is a unique demon-hybrid with more history than many other characters, the first demon hunter on Azeroth, as well as Malfurion's brother? And not only that, but as said above, Kil'jaeden is still out there, and it is almost certain that he will try to kill illidan for his failure to destroy the lich king. And after all that preparing Illidan has made for his counter-attack, do you really think that he will be killed by that group of heroes? It would not make any sense. Illidan doing all that he has done, only to be killed while in his own fortress? If you really think about all that is significant about him, then add that to what presently concerns him, I just don't see how you could believe him dead. He will not die, at least not yet. Everything points to him surviving, including what Malfurion says to keeper Remulos: I fear that the time may soon come that our bond is tested and it will not be as it was at the well in Zin-Azshari. And of course the fact that Illidan is preparing to fight against Kil'jeaden. And it has always been my personal wish that Illidan would again confront the lich king, win, and regain his sanity. But I must impress how little sense it would make for Blizzard to get rid of characters who still have parts to play. I am sure prince Kael'thas will live. He is going to be summoning Kil'jeaden in the Fury of the Sunwell, content patch 2.4. --Mesethusela 00:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

No Kael'thas is dead too and you turn his head into the Shattered Sun Offensive. He has no purpose in the 25 man and is only in the 5 man. So unless he becomes a headless zombie he is dead too come 2.4. Blizzard has made it pretty clear (and even said at the lore panel) they are willing to kill major lore characters like Illidan and Kael. They have explained the purpose of the WoW comic and other books is to introduce NEW major characters and heroes such as the return of Varian. Nothing points to Illidan being alive and while it may be hard for you to accept he is gone and dead. Kael and Illidan have played their parts of the tragic story of a person doing what they thought was right and going down the wrong path to accomplish that. Leviathon 01:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, perhaps Kael'thas will die, but I hope you are not disagreeing with what I said about him summoning Kil'jaeden, because he definitely is doing that. I can't tell if you are disagreeing with that or not, but if you are, then you can read about it under the "In World of WarCraft" section on the Kil'jaeden page. The Kil'jaeden you will be able to fight in patch 2.4 is a twisted, incomplete version of him, because he is still being summoned by Kael. But I don't want to turn this discussion towards whether Kael'thas is alive or not, so I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens, concerning Illidan as well. Theres really no reason to continue this debate. Just as long as you know "I remain unconvinced." (P.S.- you have not countered all my arguments that Illidan is still alive, and if you analyze our posts and compare them, you should find that mine is superior. If that is not what you find, then you have done something wrong.) --Mesethusela 17:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I know Kael is the one who summoned him but he is not in the 25 man. It seems he served his purpose and Kil'jaeden is having his warlocks finish the actual summoning. Kil'jaeden is not twisted and incomplete because of Kael summoning him but merely because you fight him as he is entering Azeroth and not fully through the Sunwell. The last bit of your paragraph seems pretty egotistical also and nothing but your opinion. Leviathon 19:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I'll admit that I didn't completely research what is going on at the sunwell, but I can still counter some. It would appear that, yes, Kil'jaeden's warlocks are finishing the summoning, but it does not matter who is actually doing the summoning. Kil'jaeden is still incomplete when you fight him. But the original point that I was trying to make when I said Kael was summoning Kil'jaeden, is that Kael is still alive. You wrote that he is dead, and even referred to how players can complete that one quest where you get his head. That leads me to believe that you were considering him as dead at the time. But, obviously, I was right about that. And, as far as I can tell, I was also right about Illidan still being alive, since you still have not countered my arguments for him being so. But I am not trying to trigger further arguments on that topic, as we have already pretty much worn it out. If you wish to further discuss Kael'thas and the Sunwell Plateau, please do so on his own talk page (where i will not be joining), since this one still belongs to Illidan (who is alive). The only thing to do now is wait and see what happens with him. If he is indeed dead by the time the Wrath of the Lich King comes out, then I will apologize to you on your own talk page. Right now, I want to apologize for the last sentence of my last post. If I offended you at all, that was not my intent. But again, as far as I can tell, I have been right all along, except of course for that minor detail as to whom the current summoner of Kil'jaeden is. If you are still not convinced, then I must warn you, I shan't give up this argument very easily. The best thing to do now is just drop it and wait. Keep on shining. --Mesethusela 01:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Having arguments for being him alive doesn't make him so. As far as the current state of WoW is concerned, Illidan is dead unless proven otherwise. Blizzard made no possibility of him being alive known, unlike Kael'thas, who EXPLICITLY states that he lives, when you turn in the Verdant Sphere. Illidan does no such thing. Honestly, do you think Maiev would make the big screw-up of mistaking Illidan for dead, and let him go free? After all this time? As for a "group of heroes" unable to do anything, I suppose that nothing we ever do will become set in stone, and that everyone is going to suddenly be alive when WC4 comes along. Really, your argument is more along the lines of denial than anything else, and we've already covered that waaaaaaaaaaay in the beginning of this thread. —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 15:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Reason why I stopped arguing with him :p. Someone so far into denial will never accept the other side of a argument no matter how much the odds are stacked against them with actual proof. Illidan is dead as far as lore is concerned right now and until Blizzard does something in game or in a new book saying otherwise thats how it is. Leviathon 16:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Guys, I am not in denial. I mean, of course I don't want Illidan to die, or else I would not have gone through all this trouble. Still, I am not arguing that he is alive just because I want him to be, but rather because that is what I really believe, just as I believe I have good evidence to back that up. I am sure I will not be able to convince you, however. Everything I have said is my opinion after all, even if it does make sense. Most of what you have written also makes sense, and I will respect your opinions. Either of us could be right, and though I still believe myself to be that one, there is of course always the chance that I am completely wrong, and perhaps missing some vital piece of information that could totally change my mind on the subject. I wish there were a way to meld our minds and communicate for a moment, so as to completely understand each other and to confirm that we both have valid information. But I have already stated most of my points more than once, and I shall not write them again. So I guess whatever I have to say from now on will be kinda weak. One more thing: I want to point out that I have viewed and accepted both sides of the argument. I carefully read and re-read everything you wrote, and then countered all of them(i think). But again, we really should drop it(at least until we receive more news on Illidan), even little comments, because I will just be tempted to respond, which will result in more wasted time for us. I have given my opinion, and you have given yours. We must respect those opinions. Only time will really solidly determine which one is correct. I look forward to that time. Farewell. --Mesethusela 09:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Humanoid

Illidan is classed as Humanoid in-game, not Demon. I guess that's an ultimate proof of Illidan being more Night Elf than Demon? --Odolwa 14:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Not really, given that the Warcraft Encyclopedia groups him with demons and not Night elves. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Nope. He's classified as a Demon. See Nihilum's killing video. --Lkangaroo 13:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, he certainly were classed as Humanoid when I met him on Netherwing Ledge. Very strange, two sources tells a different story.-Odolwa 20:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

He is a Demonic Night Elf. Easy. ^_^ --Invin Dranoel 05:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if you go into the RPG he's an "Outsider (demonic, and evil)".Baggins 19:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been going through the Warcraft Encyclopedia lately, and they always refer to him as a demon. For what that's worth.--Austin P 11:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"You don't so much kill him..."

Uh huh. So were they lying, or did the person delievering that statement not know what it means to kill someone? --Austin P 12:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Or was acting on information he thought true at the time. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you and your fair, reasonable asumptions...--Austin P 15:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What'd that mean?--K ) (talk) 16:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

To be truthful, he does trap all of you, and could easily kill all of you while encaged, but Maiev comes along and releases everyone. Besides, it's not Blizzard policy to give away such vital information. —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 16:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

While it may not have been the case here, there's a difference between not giving away vital information and being purpously misleading. --Austin P 21:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is true, but we have no idea what his intentions were- whatever they were, it doesn't actually matter at all. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Why? --Austin P 03:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not going in the article, and it has no bearing whatsoever on Illidan's actual status or speculated status. Illidan died, and an employee's statement turned out wrong. I fail to see the relveance. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Maiev killed him...not the player...soo...--Gurluas 12:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Leaping Liches, he's right. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a conspiracy! They're in CAhoots! -whatariot34

I was wondering about that, whether it could be said that the player can get in his way, but the player isn't what killed him.

Would it be within the guidelines for me to post a random analysis of Illidan's character here? It's something I've been wanting to do for awhile, but haven't gotten the chance. --Austin P 16:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd really rather you didn't. This article is already too long because people keep overrating him. If you decided to do such an analysis of several characters, that would be one thing, but I don't think it's fair to have a huge amount of Illidan-based stuff when there are characters just as important. If you'd like to post the analysis on your talk page, though, and discuss within the confines of your page, I think that would be fine. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, once we can see what the analysis looks like, it's easier to make decisions :) User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

If it's a very good analysis, we may even delete something from this article to put it in!

Seriously, it would definetly be an interesting thing to read, regardless of whether it's put in the article.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll do that next time the urge hits me. I don't know if anything I'd say could be applied to the article, it's just something I want to do for fun. --Austin P 02:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

On my talk page if anyone wants to check it out. --Austin P 13:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

What the hell?

Ragestorm I'm getting kind of sick of you deleting everything I do on here, there was nothing wrong with my Illidan Stormrage pic there why on earth did you go and get rid of it. ~ Peregrine

First, it has horrid compression quality. Second, it has ugly blue background. Modelviewer images are not a preferred source, please ease up with the model viewer obsession. --GRYPHON^tc 20:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I was deleting that picture before you came along, and Kirochi did as well. The problem's not you, it's the kriffin' article. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"First, it has horrid compression quality. Second, it has ugly blue background."

I'm not sure what you mean about the compression quality, however if you want I can further falsify the picture by adding it to a WoW background... ~ Peregrine

Falsify = Bad.--SWM2448 21:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

We only got over the recoloring crisis a few months ago- let's NOT open a similar wound. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Recoloring crisis"? ~ Peregrine

Someone went around coloring Metzen's grayscale drawings and posting them as headline limages- not well recieved. Adding backdrops to the model viewer image amounts to the same thing. Model viewer images just look rather unprofessional. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, we'll just go and get rid of every screenshot from the WoW Model Viewer in wowwiki... that includes my picture, and kirochi's, just on the Illidan page... I assume you'll want to delete WoW Model Viewer as well... And FYI I was kidding about adding a backdrop, but if you really want I can change the background color to like an evil black or something... I think people deserve to see Illidan in as much glory as possible without having to watch Nihilum's poor-quality kill video. ~ Peregrine

Now you're exagerrating (sarcasm recieved). You know perfectly well that the model viewer article won't be removed. One thing: how many other WoW model viewer shots do you see in character articles? Heck, deleting the one of Kael has been turned into an art form!

I'm not going to pretend this was handled properly, but I have a tendency to revert immediately, and you have a tendency to not react to discussions, so here we are.

How does that image (FYI, the image you pin on Kirochi is actually Syntopia's, and it's already been removed) show Illidan's "glory?" --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It's such a dramatic screenshot, and I don't think the blue backdrop ruins it.... hm, would creating a page where players could post their WoW Model Viewer screenshots be some sort of violation? There seems to be a rule to revert every edit I do. ~ Peregrine

Bad compression produces all the artifacts around the image in the blue area. As far as background color, the best solution would be a transparent background. From what I have seen from your contribution history, your images are mostly being reverted more simply for poor placement and quality. However, it still stands that Model viewer images are not preferred. --GRYPHON^tc 01:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reversion issue you have with me is (well, was) explainable. You posted a theory based on shoddy evidence, I removed, you put it back. I started a discussion (thus far, this is typical editing behavior). You didn't respond. Continue in this vein for a while, and the current situation emerges. (If you wish to continue this side of the discussion, move to usertalk).

As Gryphon said, model viewer images aren't enjoyed in general, regardless of the situation.. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Again I ask, would creating a page where players could post their WoW Model Viewer screenshots be some sort of violation? (I'm kind of moved away fro the discussion above, thinking about making a page where ALL players CAN post their cool WoW Model Viewer screenshots...) Maybe some kind of subpage from WoW Model Viewer? ~ Peregrine

I'm going to take the "out of my department" stance. The only thing I can say to that is that it isn't particularly encyclopedic (and Illidan is already all over the official page), but as I say, out of my department. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The Wiki isn't free image hosting, there are image policies. Cool is highly subjective and a model viewer screenshot gallery is not informative. That is better left to another website. --GRYPHON^tc 17:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thought it would be best to ask before I did something like that that would obviously have some sort of regulation of some sort. ~ Peregrine

Regarding Model Viewer, a similar discussion was had here - WoWWiki talk:Image guidelines#WoW Model Viewer. The guidelines do not specifically cover the viewer as it is some best discussed rather than turned into a set of 'laws' in my eyes. Generally it's okay so long as it looks good, is not an image of unreleased content and is appropriate for the page. For a character, one would want an in-game image, whereas for a generic beastie, a transparent PNG works very well. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 17:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Illidan is a raid boss and to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see a WoW Model Viewer shot of him roaring or posing with his skull than him flailing madly with 'Killerork', 'hotxnelf' and 'twinksforlife' dancing around him like lunatics. ~ Lord Azkera

Sargeras and Illidan?

Why would Sargeras give Illidan powers since Illidan is a demon hunter, which fights against demons and the Burning Legion. I mean how could Sargeras not know, since don't you think Sargeras knew he was going to be one? Mr.X8 21:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not like Sargeras GAVE Illidan his eye. The eye was simply stashed there, as a powerful artifact, which Illidan claimed. And besides, Illidan was working under Kil'jaeden at that time, and I don't see any reason why Sargeras would dislike him. --Odolwa 01:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

In the War of the Ancients, Illidan betrayed the Night Elves and joined Sargeras and the Burning Legion. That was when Sargeras gave him his new shiny eyes (or lack thereof) and the tattoos on his chest. ~ Peregrine

Exactly. Actually, the Demon Hunter class is a game mechanic- Illidan possesses Demon Hunter-like abilities but isn't technically one of them (and definetly wasn't one of them when Sargeras gave him the eyes). --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That confuses me a little... there's a demon hunter in Nagrand named Altruis the Sufferer who talks about Illidan and says that he still has great respect for him, because without him he wouldn't have found his path. There are also the three night elf demon hunters at the Black Temple, not to mention all the blood elves who are training... and Altruis talks about that too, mentioning how Illidan allowed Kael to send five blood elves to train under him as demon hunters. I can't remember the exact wording, but he says something to the effect of, "Illidan put them through ruthless training that even a veteran demon hunter would struggle with." In WC3, Illidan also says, "Are there demons nearby?" when you click on him. From all this evidence, I'm inclined to believe that he actually is a demon hunter... then again, were they around at the time when Sargeras did this to him? If his intentions all along were to betray the Legion - and from what I remember from the books, they were - that would make sense. Also, all the demon hunters I've seen in game have the same tattoos and such as Illidan, even the lone female (Alandien, at the Black Temple). - Aladara 16:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Illidan is willing to serve to legion while they offered him magical powers. This happened in the first war with Sargeras, as well as the second war where Kil'jaedan offered him power in return for taking out the lich king. Since he has failed in doing so in WC3 Frozen Throne, he has reverted back to hunting demons for his own protection. Raze 06:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"In the War of the Ancients, Illidan betrayed the Night Elves and joined Sargeras and the Burning Legion."

Actually, in the current trilogy Illidan was planning to betray the Legion. --Austin P 13:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Knaak's work coincides almost exactly with Blizzard's "official" lore. Almost. Thats one point on which they differ, and personally, I'll choose to believe the guys who made the game in the first place. Not that theres anything wrong with Knaak's, personally I think Illidan SHOULD have done that in Lore, but Blizzard and Knaak differ on that point. ~ Peregrine

Huh? So which are you throwing out, the encyclopedia/wc3 or the books?... --Sky (t · c · w) 06:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Blizzard worked closely with Knaak on the novels, as they did in all the novels. Changes made were changes they either wanted or approved of. --Austin P 14:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Huh? So which are you throwing out, the encyclopedia/wc3 or the books?"
The books, overall I approve of Knaak's, admittedly minor, changes, but Blizzard lore is still the "offical" lore. ~ Peregrine

Why? Last I checked, everything is overseen by Metzen, making it just as official. Now why would you throw out the books? Even the bookkeepers operate under the idea that the books are more official than the history for that time. --Sky (t · c · w) 20:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, whatever they want to do, that's their business, not mine. Personally, I choose to follow the lore stated on the site or stated in comments by Blizzard. When they change their lore to coincide with Knaak's, I'll follow it just as devotedly. ~ Peregrine

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/faq.html

Proof that it's official. --Austin P 02:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, ty for that proof, I seem to recall reading in the WoW Encyclopedia that Illidan betrayed them in the War of the Ancients, guess they changed it. ~ Peregrine

Except Knaak's "lore" is Blizzard's lore; everything is overseen by Metzen (please read said page). Even the RPG, which is outside what most people would call lore. It, however, still fits into the Warcraft world. Metzen even mentions in Metzen on Lore that he makes booboos, or misses things. Tbh, both series of events are correct; the books just rewrote what happened the first time around. ;). --Sky (t · c · w) 05:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The books aren't always law. Female dwarves had beards in Day of the Dragon, though I'm sure it was written before there were plans for them to become playable. Raze 06:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

True, but you disqualify the first part of the latter sentence with the second part. Hell, we didn't see female dwarves in war3 at all. ;P --Sky (t · c · w) 06:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe they decided to shave them off. =P —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 08:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to get technical (I know I do), DotD said that beards were a sign of beauty among dwarves, so it would seem unlikely that many would shave 'em. --Austin P 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Psh, I know what happened. American teen magazines happened. =D —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 07:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

But...America doesn't exist on Azeroth.

<_> --Austin P 17:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Head asplode! --Sky (t · c · w) 18:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

He means the looks were tooled to be attractive to humans. Which we are (I hope) in real life for marketing reasons. This is starting to get off topic.--SWM2448 18:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It's also quite likely that they just forgot about it. It's only on one page, and I doubt many people care.

So, how bout that Illidan guy? What an animal. --Austin P 19:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC) I heard somewhere that Kael'THas has/had a special bond with Illidan....something about him getting his powers from Illidan i think.....if Kael will be a traitor of the legion like somebody said he might become then what if he will be able to revive Illidan and join THe Army of the Light?And i heard dome demons could be revived ,blizz declared Illidan alive after Frozen Throne becaude he was popular ,i suppose he still is so why wouldn't he be declared at least revivable or something like that?OK he'll probably be revived without his weapons and most of his possesions but if this would happen in Warcraft4 then it wouldn't be a problem(they could make a mission about him regaining his weapons or getting other weapons).Sorry if you think it's an idiotic sugestion but i wanted you to hear my opinion which is why the discussion page exists-Marakanis

To be technical, the Discussion page exists to discuss changes to the article. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

They always meant for Illidan to be alive. They just didn't have time to do their battle with full cinematic graphics, and if they had it would've apparently shown that Illidan lived. --Austin P 15:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Actually i read somewhere that they let him live because of his popularity ....think it was a developer or Metzen.(Marakanis 01:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC))

I never believed him to be dead at WC3:TFT. He was still moving and struggling after Arthas struck him and left him to die. Considering Arthas didn't kill Vash or Kael, it is completely logical that he survived. Now, the 25 man raid to kill Illidan is a different story. Sagares gave Illidan powers because he believed Illidan would help him. But Illidan planned to Punk the Demons cus he loved Tyrande and wouldn't have anyone touch her --Invin Dranoel 06:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually Vash and Kael could have made their own faction if Illidan died so it's not so logical and anyway i DID hear some developers (or Metzen) say he was declared alive only because he was popular ,originally they planed for him to stay dead.And anyway you never know maybe blizz will pull it again and say the Naaru gave him another chance or something and BTW what has the part with Sargeras giving Ilidan powers have to do with it?(Marakanis)

Can we try and stick to article related discussion? This isn't supposed to be a forum. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 17:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This is madness

Moved to Sparta (Talk:Illidan Stormrage/Analysis).

RPG-classes

So now he is a Rogue aswell? Seriously, why are you adding the RPG-classes into the Wiki? They are appearantly very wrong. --Odolwa 14:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Because they are his classes in the RPG (and are marked as such)? No person can be pinned down to a single "type", just like in real life. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 15:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The demon hunters are known for their agility, so rogue seems like a good core class for them.--Austin P 03:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ya demon hunters tend to come out of the rogue class in the RPG. In game some seem to share alot of the rogue abilities.Baggins 03:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand rogue, demon hunter, and sorcerer, but how is he a mage and fighter now? Mr.X8 00:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Fighters are similar to warriors and he was classed as a fighter in the original Warcraft RPG, but classed as a warrior in the new World of Warcraft RPG. He was classed as a sorcerer in Warcraft RPG, however as the mage class is similar he was classed as one in the World of Warcraft RPG. Its not that difficult to understand.Baggins 19:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

He should have demon hunter class, when MoM came out that class was not existed yet.Master3 10:53, Dec 22 2007

Rogue: Come on. Dual Wielding, not to mention a fighting style very similar to rogues? Of course he is. Mage: Illidan is addicted to magic. He probably uses it to make himself breakfast. How could he NOT be a mage? Fighter: Probably one of the most skilled at one-on-one combat in the world, as demonstrated by his duel with Arthas. Again, how could he NOT be a fighter?

Conclusion: Illidan is the druid of the RPG characters, the virtual jack-of-all-trades. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 20:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

...but incapable of healing himself. ;D --Super Bhaal 23:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Grrr, all this usless ranting about what class he is, if you want to analyis(sp) what he is down to a -class- he is whom he is, Illidan! Its like trying to pin down Arthas(sp), sure hes a DK, but hes also consumed the power of the lich king, so does that make him a "Lich-Doom Knight of death?" Or are we just going to say: Paladin, Lich, Warrior, Necromancer, Etc-etc... I wouldn't. Now, if we really want to nut out whom he is, it goes like this:

Firstly he is a sorceror(sp), becuase thats what "LORE" Said he was, not a mage, not a warlock, not a -anything- else. As we all know, he is proficiant at word play, or more of "glave play" for humors sake. So, we have a powerful caster class that can fight at melee range. Now, I remember something telling me that he was the first demon hunter (Correct me if I'm wrong) so, in his earlyer stages hes basically just set the table for any other demon hunter- Powerful magiocs and melee fighting skills.

BUT, now hes consumed demonic power from artifacts, id dosn't mean he is a warlock, becuase last I checked warlocks were directly connected to demons. Illidan can't be his own demon which leaves him at sqaure one: A powerful sorceror(sp) that can melee like a god. So, what do we want to call him, I'm happy for his class to Demon Hunter or to the extent as some thing new :O How about we call him a 'Master' Because there is no -one- person alike him, just like Arthas(sp)... Double_Fury

Just a theory

Wasn't it Guldan's idea for Illiden to get the Eye Of Sargares? Since Illiden did consume his skull and that was the last thing Guldan was looking for (Either that or a drinking fountain of health on the isle of sargaras). Maybe the orc corrupted his mind in order for him to seek out the artifact.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by The last Alterac (talk · contr).

What do you mean Lasty? Illidan learned of it through Gul'dan's skull, but I doubt he knew Illidan at all. What fountain of health are you talking about?--SWM2448 00:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

As I recall, Illidan needed the Eye of Sargeras to attack Icecrown. - Aladara 01:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What fountain of health are you talking about -unsigned comment by ???

The fountain of health im talking about is a normal fountain of health you find in Warcraft III. AND WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT GULDAN WAS LOOKING FOR THE EYE?? BESIDES BEING ON THE SAME ISLAND. For all we know he was having a bbq inside the tome before he was attacked by several creutres and the pitlorde that attacks Miev in the tomb of Sargares?(There are two pitlords in that level one you can kill but his out of the way the other is in the final cut scene) As I recall, Illidan needed the Eye of Sargeras to attack Icecrown He did need the Eye to attack Icecrown. Maybe Manaroth told him to get the eye to kill Nezuel for refusing the pact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The last Alterac (talk · contr).

To correct some things:

It's "theory", not "theary"
It's "Gul'dan", not "Guldan"
It's "Illidan", not "Illiden"
It's "Sargeras", not "Sargeres"
It's "Maiev", not "Miev"
It's "Mannoroth", not "Manaroth"
It's "Ner'zhul", not "Nezuel"

What in the world are you doing on a lore-discussion when you can't even spell a single character-name? If you can't even put enough effort into spelling names correctly, I see no reason for us to take anything of what you wrote seriously. And sign your posts! --Odolwa 11:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not recall two Pit Lords in the Tomb of Sargeras level in War3. I also have no idea how Mannoroth could have ordered Illidan to steal the Eye when Mannoroth was dead at this point... Additionally, it is explained in... well somewhere... that Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'dan, granting him Gul'Dan's memories. When Kil'Jaeden ordered Illidan to destroy the Frozen Throne, Illidan decided on his own that the Eye would be an ideal artifact to use for the destruction of Ner'Zhul's icy fortress. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 19:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

He is correct in saying that there were two pit lords in the level, and he properly placed them.--Austin P 00:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

What in the world are you doing on a lore-discussion when you can't even spell a single character-name?

What is with you and spelling?? ATLEAST YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY (evan though they it might be full of bull shit) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The last Alterac (talk · contr).

Enough. No personal attacks please Odolwa and The last Alterac, and stay on topic. In addition, again, please sign your posts. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 02:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

User:The last Alterac: during the flashbacks in the Tomb, it becomes clear that Gul'dan was looking for the Eye, specifically, if that was the original question in all this. Peregrine: there were creatures on that map that used Pit Lord models, but I think they were called overlords or something. Odolwa: please leave insulting the other users to the dry and reedy academic admins (ie, me). -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

What I wrote was more like constructive criticism than insult, but I promise it won't happen again. To return to the topic: Why would Mannoroth order Illidan to steal the Eye of Sargeras? I don't see how that can make sense. As have been said before, Mannoroth was dead at the moment. Illidan used Gul'dans memories of the place, but it was his own decision. At the same time, I'm sure Gul'dan would had been happy about Ner'zhul being destroyed. Those two weren't exactly best friends towards the end. --Odolwa 15:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe the overlords were the doomlord models, and the pit lord was just listed as pit lord.--Austin P 02:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Why would Mannoroth order Illidan to steal the Eye of Sargeras? I don't see how that can make sense. As have been said before, Mannoroth was dead at the moment. Illidan used Gul'dans memories of the place, but it was his own decision. At the same time, I'm sure Gul'dan would had been happy about Ner'zhul being destroyed. Those two weren't exactly best friends towards the end

Eh hem. I said Manoroth orderd Guldan to steal the eye.--The last Alterac 06:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No one ordered Gul'dan to do anything, he was after power for himself. Even if someone did, it would have been Kil'jaeden, not Mannoroth.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And by this point in the Horde's history, Kil'Jaeden had abandoned them. Sargeras/Medivh brought them into the world, but when Medivh was killed, the last of the Horde's benefactors were gone, leaving them alone. Believe me, after the opening of the dark portal, the orcs were acting independantly - on the orders of the shadow council, yes, but without direction from any demons or powers of any kind. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 21:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Illidan Stormrage-still good?

So...does this mean he still has(had,hes dead now)good?The quote:"Whatever I may be - whatever I may become in this world - know that I will always look out for you, Tyrande." Does that show anything? Or was that in the War of the Ancients?User:Airiph/sig 17:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

He was mad, not really "evil". Kirkburn  talk  contr 17:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Illidan has always been good. He is just misunderstood.--Odolwa 22:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Everything Illidan has ever done, was for Tyrande. --Invin Dranoel 00:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read the entire article on Illidan. Its a tantalizing, intriguing, sad story, really. In short, he was never truly "evil" - just driven mad by a combination of his proximity to demons (and Sargeras) during the War of the Ancients and Tyrande rejecting him in favor of his brother, who did not even know she loved him. There would also be, presumeably, some sort of mental consequence due to his yet-to-be-determined affiliation with the Old Gods. The quote where he says he will always look out for Tyrande comes from the War3 TFT campaign, after he and Malfurion (and, consequently, the Night Elves and Naga) join forces to search for Tyrande, who is being attacked by the scourge. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 02:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Not a forum, people. But Peregrine's got the right of it. Just because you are capable of love doesn't mean you're good, nor does hatred make one evil.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

illidan is just like Darth vader in star wars, he's misunderstood, the bigest problem with him is his adiction for power, but he can forget even that becouse of Tyrande, as we can see in WC3

Sign please! And Ragestorm summed up what I was trying to say quite nicely, thank you :) ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 03:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'll never buy into this rubbish about Illidan being good or misunderstood. He never has been either, I think. How many chances did he have to redeem himself? Apart from saving Tyrande (and even then, Malfurion basically said "don't come back or i'll kick your ass) he has done everything for his own personal gain, or to protect himself. And added to this is the fact that he's a cliche of a character, but people just totally love him because he's "badass".

I'll stop now, because Rage will come down in a second telling me this isn't a forum (and I apologize in advance, my friend :) ) but I just wanted to share my opinion. Warchiefthrall 00:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

<Looms ominously in the distance>--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Illidan has quite often done the right thing for the wrong reasons. From saving Ashenvale by consuming the Skull of Gul'dan, to attempting to destroy the Lich King because Kil'jaeden told him to, Illidan's motivations have almost always been selfish ones. While he would occasionally do things that were for the good of others, the underlying motivations would still be personal gain, with any communal good being merely a happy side effect. Even when acting to help Tyrande, he's still hoping, somewhere deep down, that she'll dump Malfurion and shack up with him instead. While he certainly shouldn't be classified as evil, "good" and "misunderstood" aren't accurate either. If this were D&D, I'd peg Illidan's alignment squarely in Chaotic Neutral. -- Dark T Zeratul 03:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If anyone cares he was classified as demonic, and neutral evil after TFT in the RPG, see alignment for explanation of neutral evil. "A neutral evil character serves only herself. She follows no law but also has no drive toward chaos. She kills or steals as she sees fit to get what she wants." Its basically everything Wartchiefthrall said above.Baggins 03:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Illidan's alignment is crazy nutso end of story. Zarnks 03:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Crazy nutso" isn't in the RPG and wouldn't qualify as an alignment anyway. Thanks for your opinion though. Garm

OBJECTION!

Manfred vonKarma: Oh dear. Illidan's alignment is bluntly obvious as Chaotic Good. Many of his intentions seem to be motivated either by personal gain or a Tyrande-style conscience telling him what's right. He is mostly insane, as implied by dialogue in the game. This isn't just some measly forum where any type of speculation, no matter how ridiculous it is, is acceptable. We require facts, people. Hard, cold, decisive facts. Garm 00:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Chaotic good? You've gotta be kidding. Illidan was a batshit insane evil tyrant who destroyed anyone who got in his way cared only about two things: himself and Tyrande. And don't think that falling for the heroine makes you automatically good (see Ming the Merciless). Also, Baggins has provided the only hard facts yet.

Edit: Either way, the DoD alignment system is not in the least bit indicative of reality and therefore is not really adequate for character profiling. Even if we switch "reality" for "15ft bat winged sorcerer". --User:Vorbis/Sig 10:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

OBJECTION!

Manfred vonKarma: The evidence you just provided would point out either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral. He is downtrodden and seen as an anti-hero, likely leading him to Chaotic Neutral. However, you are indeed correct about not being able to adequately profile characters with such an inconsitent system. Garm 21:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that that quote came before he got beaten by Arthas. That event defiantly sent him in total madness. --N'Nanz 21:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Illidan: Felsworn?

I got to thinkin' and reading and realised something. Is it me or is Illidan's half-demonic state more remeniscent to a Fel-Sworn than it is to that of a Demon Hunter in either their metamorphosised state or the change they supposedly undergo over time?

While he does retain the same soul unlike most Felsworn, Illidan's transformation is much different in that his appearance is half-demonic, half-humanoid. Also, his wings work, unlike the Demon Hunters who supposedly posess non-functional wings. The rest of the evidence to support this theory is his change was brought on by the Skull of Gul'Dan; which was channelling a LOT of fel energy. This adds to the theory because Warlocks and those who use Fel magics are likely to become Fel-Sworn.

With that in mind, wouldn't Illidan's demonic form be more attributed to Fel-Sworn than the Demon Hunters? Or would it be potentially possible for a Demon Hunter to become simular to him?

I was eventually going to point this out, but you got me. D: But I agree that he's probably at least partially Fel-Sworn, due to his increased height ( but if everyone were to go by my logic that'd mean Zul'jin was too ) and functional wings. --Super Bhaal 08:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I've mentioned this before, but I wouldn't say he's like a "fel-sworn" exactly. Even Fel-Sworn wings are generally relatively useless (although they can grow in effectiveness over time). Of course not all fel sworn even have wings. Most importantly Fel-sworn are servents of the burning legion, and are slaves to a demonic will. Illidan being "enslaved" is questionable. He seems to have his own free will, and its also stated that he is an independent entity infact; "Not all demons are part of the Legion, as Illidan Stormrage can attest..."-Warcraft Encyclopedia. Which definitely seems to go contrary to what a "fel-sworn" is. To be honest Illidan has never really sworn himself to anyone, even when Kil'Jaeden had some control over him.--Baggins 03:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There is also the distinct possibility that he uses magic to fly. Szili 19:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's nearly impossible to classify Illidan - he is completely unique. Don't even try, you'll just confuse anybody who reads this :) ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 03:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

About those eyes

I seem to recall something in "Sundering" about how Illidan's eyes served not only Illidan but Sargeras as well. The implications to this are interresting. Could Sargeras see everything that Illidan could see? Saregeras's words would indicate as much, although his actions (or lack thereof) might cast that in doubt. (Meneldir 19:49, 9 January 2008 (EST))

Speculation on Illidan's living status needs to cease

OBJECTION!

Franziska vonKarma: We have no real source that Illidan is dead or alive. In fact, an interview already stated that "you don't so much 'kill' Illidan as you do get in his way." It isn't out of date as we do not have any new/other sources stating Illidan's status. Raid bosses don't normally die. In the Burning Crusade manual, they don't even mention the infamous Hogger. Additionally, the Burning Crusade timeline skips the instance dungeons before Blackrock Spire. No Deadmines. No Gnomeregan. No Uldaman. No Mauradon. No Scarlet Monastery either. It doesn't even mention whether or not Lady Prestor was "discovered" as Onyxia. It doesn't mention whether or not these threats got downed at all. Therefore, stop speculating whether Illidan is dead or alive. He is likelier alive, seeing as how other raid bosses managed to survive. That is only my opinion, though, and whatever Blizzard does is what is done. We all know the saying "Stupid is as stupid does", right, Illidan fans? And for those who believe he is dead, do you have any substantial evidence to prove it? I. Don't. Think. So.

Second objection on speculation/lack of detail. I used Miles Edgeworth on the first one, and Franziska vonKarma is doing this one.Garm 20:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Alphonse "Tits" McGee: Whilst I'm of the opinion that they didn't create a dramatic death scene for nothing, I agree. This topic has been well and truly covered: until Blizzard says they're dead, they're only "killable". --User:Vorbis/Sig 11:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

He will return. A powerful being such as Illidan can't be killed off that easily.--Odolwa 13:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I like a good speculation as much as anybody, but this REALLY has to stop! This is not the place to discuss whether or not he as alive. Please, keep it to the WoW Forums! ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine, Acting on Behalf of Ragestorm as "NOT-A-FORUM" Policer 15:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is another thing to support Illiden being alive. If Illiden is classified as dead then shouldn't Thrall, Cairne or any other faction leader can die in game. So why is it that just becuase some one tells you to kill Illiden he is dead, while if you kill ANY faction leader of the Allience or Horde out of your own free will THEY ARE STILL COUNTED AS ALIVE--The last Alterac 06:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

For the 4,628 time, faction leaders are a completely different situation because PvP raids are NOT part of lore, while the raids against character such as Illidan ARE.. This stops NOW. Illidan's status is listed as "Killable," as all such characters are, while all faction leaders are "Alive". Perhaps he is still alive, I don't know, and I don't care, and quite frankly it doesn't really matter at this point. Any future discussions as to his status will be considered non-editorial, and, in a change to my previous policy, will be removed. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me, we should have {{talkheader}} style boxes at the top of certain discussion articles so that the same questions don't need to be answered repeatedly. Kirkburn  talk  contr 14:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

'Dog Johnson' Why are we making up names then bolding them before our comments?   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 19:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Funky O'Donnell: I think Garm started it off to lighten up the conversation... ^_^ --User:Vorbis/Sig 20:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Rogerston Findlesworth: Hai guyz cen i play to? ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 03:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Chicago Bill The more the merrier I guess :)   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 15:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Race change

Should we change Illidan from NE/Demon hybrid to possibly half-night elf? I mean even Kael in Magister's Terrace called him that, and originally a half-NE could mean NE and something non human.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 19:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

In general, the term half-night elf implies a night elf/human offspring. It also implies that it was by birth, rather than Illidan's special, unique circumstances. -- Dark T Zeratul 19:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Before the merge, Half-Night Elf was NE/human, Half-Kaldorei was NE/something else.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

You know as Illidan is a half demon. Aren't we only destroying his body as demons can't simply being killed? Zarnks 06:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Where's that written? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It's written in the Ogri'la-quest called "Banish the Demons". http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=11026 --Odolwa 20:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Illidan's heart

Now that Illidan is dead does anybody else think that the Legion will take his heart? Sargeras told Mannoroth to give him his heart if he proved a traitor.

User:LangstonTheCoward

Non-editorial discussion. But if we're on the topic, I'm not sure that was meant literally, or that the command wound carry after 10,000 years and the deaths of both the giver and the reciever of the order. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think, too, that the intent behind the command was to warn Illidan of the consequences of betrayal (i.e. death). I don't think his heart in and of itself holds any interest to the Legion, especially since Illidan is already dead. -- Dark T Zeratul 05:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ragestorm, so who says Sargeras is dead? :S ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 20:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't open that can of worms. He's dead enough in that it's Kil'jaeden who usually deals with Illidan, etc. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it within the scope of this particular discussion.--Ragestorm (talk · contr)

Awh, but cans of worms are so FASCINATING. Who knows what might be inside once you get them all out of the way? ;) ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 04:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Back on the initial question, and on another question, since Maive killed Illidan, and the only other reason she has to live is to kill Tyrande, and Malfurion, she would take his heart to present to Kiljaeden?

Another question I have is why do the people on Outland who are completely inlove with Arcane Magic call Illidan the Betrayer? I know he was a betrayer in the old version, but in the new version he only goes over to the Legion to sabotage it from within, and he only becomes labelled a betrayer for creating another Well of Eternity, then showing no remorse or regret for doing it, so it seems somewhat odd. --User:LangstonTheCoward

1. Maiev is in no way affiliated with the Legion, so no, I doubt she'd be tempted.

2. I don't quite see what you're getting at. Can you restate the question? --User:Vorbis/Sig 15:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm just getting at the way the Draenei and Broken all call Illidan the Betrayer, and hate him for his actions during the War of the Ancients. However in the War of the Ancients Trilogy Illidan is a welcomed site amongst the Night Elves untill he created his second Well of Eternity.

So why do the Draenei call him the Betrayer instead of something like The Enslaver, or The Maniac, since they use Arcane Magic I don't see why they would think Illidan did the wrong thing.

User:LangstonTheCoward

First off, please ask lore questions for your personal clarification on the Warcraft Pump or directly to a lore-savvy user. Discussion pages are for discussing editorial changed for the article itself.

To answer your question, I believe that the Draenei call him the Betrayer because they are allied of the Night Elves, who refer to him as such, while the Broken were betrayed by him: he promised to free them completely from the Legion and the fel orcs and help them reclaim what they lost, then he goes off and follows Kil'jaeden's command and Outland is in an even worse state. Same title, different reason. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree - thought I hate to hear anything against my favorite character, I have to admit there were a lot of betrayals on his part, whether he saw them as such or not. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 23:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Illidans scar

When arthas cut illidan with frostmourne illidan should have got a visible scar. But in wow no scar is seen on he's chest.LKHighlord 9:14, 26 march 2008 (UTC)

Malfurion's Reaction to Illidan

In one section, the wiki notes that Illidan is received well by his brother (in the sense that Malfurion wants to forgive/lighten the punishments the Kaldorei wish to instill upon him after the War of the Ancients) 10,000 years prior to Tyrande's mission to rescue him, and that he is much less forgiving during the rescue.

One reason for this is that 10,000 years is a long time to brood on a subject, particularly if you spend much of that time lost in the Emerald Dream, finding perfection in nature and solitude. Also, these forgivings come after the battle is over, but before Illidan drops the vials into the lake. At the end of "The Sundering", Malfurion's feelings are not revealed (and could be different regarding Illidan), and the perspective shifts off of the Night Elves. Yasuhiko (talk) 00:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Master of the Black Temple

In the conversation after downing Illidan, Akama says "The Light will fill these chambers once again". Could we suspect after these words, that Akame became new Master of the Black Temple? --Shargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 20:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)