Actually Grimtotem are openly hostile to other tauren seen in Stonetalon and Thousand needles where they massacred a tauren villiage. Zarnks 09:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As a whole the clan is part of the Horde, according to the lore, even though the clan practices secret agendas, that often go against the Horde. Yes there are individual groups of members of the clan that are more open with their dark agendas than others, and yes there have been witnesses to these acts by survivors, who want the Grimtotem stopped. But overall the majority of the clan are considered to be "Horde" affilated[1] (HPG 162).
But its not such a black and white thing. While it may appear that they are outside the Horde because they are flagged "hostile" in game, this is not the case. the "hostility" in game is only a game mechanic to make them attackable for quest objectives. According to lore however, they are part of the Horde, since their leadership lives in Thunder Bluff, and Magram is part of the Council of Elders there.Baggins 18:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Many npcs don't consider them Horde. They attacked a Horde villiage in Thousand needles and Stonetalon. I think their still Horde due to WoW's static timeline. Zarnks 18:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Again like I said yes there have been witnesses to some of the deceit by parties of Grim Totem that have attacked other invidials within the Horde. It wasn't the entire clan, however (although its pretty clear that Magatha was likely behind it). However, currently the clan itself is still part of the Horde, and Magatha is still in charge of it, and commanding them from Thunder Bluff.
Its not unlike say KKK, burning down houses, and schools and communities, while actually being citizens of the United States. Its possible to have domestic terrorism.
Until blizzard states that they have "left the Horde" then we can't speculate to that nature.Baggins 18:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm.Still though I imagine Magatha would more under watch after these brutal events. Zarnks 18:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure she is, and the leaders of the Horde aren't blind, they know of the unprovoked attacks. However, she has some strong supporters in the Council of Elders apparently.Baggins 18:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

It sure is bizzare, though, given all that Cairne now knows about them (slaughtering other Tauren), that he hasn't kicked them out of Thunder Bluff. What could be his lore-related motivations for inaction? I'd also point out that Horde players get TB/Horde rep for killing Grimtotems and completing anti-Grimtotem quests. The whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

Sign your post. Part of it could be that from the point in time that Horde Player's Guide takes place, post-WoW, just before TBC, that those quest events in game haven't yet occured, so they haven't yet slaughtered other tauren yet, so therefore Cairne wouldn't know what they are going to do.Baggins 17:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought that Camp Aparaje was the name of the settlement attacked by the Grimtotem, not a settlement of the Grimtotem themselves? They don't seem to have settled there at all since everything has been burned. Delerzhus 08:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

An edit on this article. Edit

I'm going to make an edit pointing out that they are wanted in Freewind post,attacked a tauren and you get reputation for Thunderbluff for attacking them. Anyone have a problem wit this? Zarnks 21:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me! Kirkburn talk contr 21:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The pretending to act on their own was just a personal theory of mine. I'll delete it. Zarnks 01:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't really the problem, it's this whole paragraph I don't understand:

In WoW, during one of the quests, they have attacked a tauren village in Stonetalon, and Freewind Post. Killing the Grimtotem awards Thunderbluff reputation. As seen with the leaders of the clan in Thunder Bluff, who are allied with the Horde and are involved in a healthy number of quests. It is unclear if this event has occurred yet in the timeline as chronicled in the RPG.

What on earth is that trying to say?? It needs a rewrite! Kirkburn talk contr 02:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

A theory of mine Edit

Some of us wondering why you get Thunderbluff reputation for killing Grimtotems and why they vicously attack tauren villiages. Well maybe they are pretending to act on their but are really under orders from Magatha. Zarnks 02:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

You don't get Thunderbluff reputation for killing Grimtotem tauren (tested on Grimtotem in Thousand Needles and Stonetalon). You get Thunderbluff reputation however for those quests starting from other tauren which involve killing Grimtotem members. --Hurax 20:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Evil or notEdit

I thought the Grimtotem were evil and they hated the Horde and other tribes of tauren, but now I just read they're part of the Horde. Mr.X8 00:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, they are;
Alignment: Neutral evil.
Affiliation: Horde.[1] (HPG 162)
Alignment means majority of the faction, but not necessarily all of them. Yes they are part of the horde... They never left the Horde... Its somewhat similar to having a criminal element being citizens in your own country. Just because a faction within the country might have evil tendencies doesn't make the country itself evil.BagginshobbitBagginstalk § contr01:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible? Edit

I was thinking of reasons why they are still part of the horde and this is what I came up with

1. I do not believe any of the quest come from people who are not black listed by the Grimtotem. So they pick and choose who they attack, and because all horde players should of stayed in a foreign camp at this point or possibly have befriended non-tauren they are enemies of the clan. This theory is very loose all considered, but considering that if your a tauren and you go to forsaken terf they know you by name, so why couldn't the Grimtotem recognize you?

2. Though this may be less likely lore wise, it's a somewhat better theory. Caine is afraid of the Grimtotem higher ups. He may be tolerating them because if they seperate he's afraid for his people. So I guess what I'm trying to say he is trying to keep the majority of people safe at the cost of a few.

Just a thought. Rannulf 00:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In some ways, I think that the 2nd theory may be closer to the mark. I think part of the reason that Cairne doesn't kick Magatha and the Grimtotems out of the unified tauren society is not because of fear for his own safety, but for that of his people. To take an example from the history of the US, when South Carolina made to suceede, the US stepped in and essentially said, "Nope, you're part of us." Even if Cairne were to kick the Grimtotem Tribe out, it might possibly do more to hurt the Tauren than keeping them in. If the other tribes feared getting kicked out for upsetting Cairne, then they might start seperating from him on a political level, destabalizing, and fractioning the Tauren people, having it regress to the multi-tribe state that it was before the unification.
Cairne knows that the Tauren are stronger as a whole then they were when they were a bunch of tribes. He also sees how joining Thrall and the Horde has greatly helped his people, not only in the reclaimation of their lands, but also in helping to unify them as a whole, opening dialogues between different tribes, and bringing his people into a new era. His decisions have to be made carefully, and kicking a tribe out instead of dealing with it might be seen as a sign of weakness to not only his people, but to the other factions of the Horde as well. Likewise, slaughtering the Tribe is simply out of the question, as the violence shown by the Grimtotem tribe is what is helping to alienate them from their own people. I think that if Magatha were to die from natural causes, the other Grimtotems would either rejoin the Horde, and submit, or leave the Horde altogether, and become more of what we see the Grimtotems as in game; rebel Tauren tribes set against the Horde, and everything else. NocturnalAbyss (talk) 01:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Apothecary Cylla Edit

It should be possible to squeeze in something about Apothecary Cylla and her involvement with the Grimtotem Clan as an emissary for the Forsaken (see Sealed Letter)--User:Gourra/Sig2 15:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

After the Wrathgate... Edit

Because the Wrathgate event seems to be the long anticipated Forsaken coup, where does that leave the Grimtotems?Sarm3 (talk) 13:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was only a certain group of Forsaken that were at the Wrathgate event? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 14:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Many of the consequences of the brief Forsaken civil war are far-reaching and remain to be seen, relations with the Grimtotems among them. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I hate to go so far as to say it's obvious, or anything so presumptuous, but I have a strong hunch that the talk about 'plans coming to fruition,' and 'total obedience,' suggests that the Grimtotem were actually in deals with the traitorous elements of the Royal Apothecary Society, who would be involved in such schemes. With the turncoat apothecaries being revealed and (supposedly) exterminated, the question now left is whether-or-not Magatha knew about the demonic corruption in the RAS, or not. Exactly who did she know she was dealing with? --TarrVetus (talk) 08:43, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
To be fair the schism may have went beyond just the Royal Apothecary Society. When we first heard rumors of the schism there were hints that Varimathras had followers through all levels of Forsaken society. The Royal Apothecary Society just appears to be the leaders of movement. But he most likely had his followers in the Cult of the Shadow as well. Has Sylvanas discovered everyone involved? That is anyone's guess.Baggins (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

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