To be fair, Bael Modan, wasn't just set up by the Explorer's League/Guild. It was also set up by the dwarves that escaped the Scourage, as a new city for dwarves in Kalimdor, as they didn't feel at home in Theramore.Baggins 22:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
That still doesn't give them the right to brutalize and destroy an entire tribe Or destroy the tauren ancestral lands with machines and explosives. Gann's words "May you be revered in Thunder Bluff as a defender of sacred tauren lands and a champion of the lost tribe."
Zarnks 22:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- ...Horde quest is highly "horde biased", I've tried to give both views on the subject in the topic. But if it reads like anti-alliance manifesto it will be modified or removed.Baggins 22:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Looks whos talking. Your edits are severely biased against the tauren. Why don't you read all of Stonespire's quotes online or do his quets.
Zarnks 22:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong, the info mentions how the tauren felt that their holy ground is being defiled. That is not "biase" against tauren... are you just not reading it? It mentions why both sides attacked each other. Again that's not biase.Baggins 22:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
It says the dwarves had to "the dwarves had to drive a band of tauren out of the area who were proving to be such a nuisance. They are tearing up the earth with explosives "horrendous blasts drive holes deep into the ground as noisy machines rip apart the hills." "It is clear the prospector depended on explosives and those noisy vehicles to rip the ground apart." when they clearly could have reached a diplomatic resolution but they rejected it. Zarnks 22:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Besides the tribe is not the bloodhoof. Gann Stonespire says his tribe is lost which means there are few left. Many tauren have last names to show what tribe they are part of. Gann's last name is clearly not Bloodhoof.
Zarnks 23:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- First off we don't know what kind of "diplomacy" the tauren used, exactly. Alliance & Horde Compendium implies it was the kind of diplomacy involving hassling archaelogists and sabotaging digsites, short of warfare. Let me remind you Alliance & Horde Compendium is not an inuniverse source, but rather a source giving info about all sides. It is not a "pro-alliance" source of information. In anycase if that was their kind of diplomacy and there was a language barrier as well. It can easily be seen how the Alliance would think they had been attacked first, and felt justified to attack the base of operations of the tauren who attacked them.
The rpg books do contain bias. They describe orcs as monstrous and an earlier claimed Half ogres were evil. May I also point that they said Troll females only exist for breeding when the games directly contradict this. Zarnks 23:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- No source has claimed half-ogres as evil (although there have been later claims that there are a few evil half-ogres). The very first source to even mention half-ogres called them honorable warriors.
"Half-ogres do not have a region to call their own. Solitary wanderers by nature, half-ogres are found sporadically in most woods in Kalimdor and Stormwind. Most are found near major ogre settlements, or former settlements, leftovers from ogre aggressions and old habits of Legion-affiliated orcs. Half-ogres roam Kalimdor as solitary warriors. They do not have a society as such on Azeroth, but as a general rule seem to be seeking honor for themselves individually, and recognition of half-ogres as a true species."-Manual of Monsters.
- Also the books don't descrbe orcs as "monsterous", in that word. Though I must point out that even designers of the games such as Metzen refer to orcs using those kinds of terms (just check out making of games videos), its simply real world adjectives being applied by authors, producers, and writers (there is no way real world people are "pro-alliance" or "pro-horde" they give the pros and cons for both, and know that both sides are just part of a story, and are not real). As for Troll females existing only for breeding, that was the way of trolls at one time, its part of historical lore. Troll culture has dramatically changed since then. Please, if your going to make examples at least choose ones that don't show that you are biased towards Metzen, Blizzard's sources of lore.Baggins 23:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
When did I insult Metzen? Anyway the half-ogre incorrectly called Ogrillon being described as evil is in manual of monsters. Though a later writer corrected this. The troll female line is describing the present,I think it popped again in the horde players guide. When in the actual game you see many female trolls in positions of power in many tribes. Theres a topic about it in the whitewolf forums. I'm far saying the rpg bok is non-canon but there are typos. Zarnks 23:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- Also on more input this thing goes beyond the Explorer's league, its part of the Kalimdor bael modan/mulgore Ironforge dwarves as a whole, not just organizations within the city and digsites. Just watch intro video for dwarves to know the whole archaelogy and titan thing is a race wide phenonemena. This might actually fit better under Mystery of the Makers.
- BTW, Ogrillon are evil half-ogres (well not actually called, evil, but "violent"), mentioned Manual of Monsters, but the book also had an article on good half-ogres. No later source has specifically mentioned ogrillon (ogrillon aren't even same half-ogres, as "mok'nathal"). A later source did confirm that there are evil half-ogres though. Sorry but you got your info mixed up. As Metzen, it goes back to you complaining about writers calling "orcs" monsterous or similar terms. Metzen has been known to call orcs "monsterous" or by similar terms. Do you argue him to be "pro-alliance"? Horde Player's guide mentions troll females generally only being used for procreation, but that rare few go beyond this to become warriors, shamans, etc of the the tribes. That it has been picking up even more in the new Horde since Thrall has given everyone the swame oppertunities. There is no contradiction here. Contrary to popular belief World of WArcraft, MMO doesn't show true world scale, and doesn't show exact numbers of male to female work ratio.Baggins 23:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
They can't only be used for procreation. What about Jeklik a high priest,there are more then a rare few. Theres a large list in the topic in page 3 of the whitewolf forums. Want me to provide a link? As for the explorer's league I'm almost absolutely that in the digsite the name Explorers league was mentioned. Zarnks 23:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- The biggest problem zarnks is that you are either misparaphrasing what is said in the rpg, or are getting information that has been misparaphrased. The RPG makes a big deal about how in traditional troll society, females are usually used for children and taking care of the household. But it also makes a big deal that there are exceptions to this rule, especially in the New Horde where Thrall has given everyone the same oppertunities and equal rights. The books even go into mentioning many imporntant females in troll society.
- The explanation (btw your paraphrase being rather innacurate paraphrase) was actually designed to explain why female trolls never appeared in any early Warcraft games, and only males were shown to fight.Baggins 23:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, there are explorer's league living in Bael Modan, but its also the major Alliance dwarven and gnome city in Kalimdor. The league only makes a small part of its population.Baggins 23:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The quote describing female trolls. "Females, on the other hand, are considered property owned by the males of the tribe. They have no voice in the complex social structure of their people, and their lives depend on the males who own them. Female jungle trolls serve only one purpose: to proliferate the species. A female is the property of her father (or her elder brother if her father is dead) until the patriarch offers her to a husband." Zarnks 23:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- Zarnks, the problem is you are only getting one portion of a paragraph from the book, not the entire section. If you read further it describes how female warriors and heroes make names for themselves, and how gender equality is becoming more common place. It also starts discussing the female priestesses as well. So basically you are taking one portion of the book, and taking it way out of context....[
- Bit of trivia, for those interested, Bael Modan actually predates World of Warcraft and was first introduced in the Role Playing Game.Baggins 23:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Who is he? The only source of him existing as dead in Bael Modan would be from the Wowwiki, so can someone tell me who he is? A source of his (non-)existance would be appreciated.--User:Gourra/Sig 18:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- See Hogun. The article info is cited as being from the Horde Player's Guide. -- (talk · contr) 2:59 PM PST 4 Jun 2008
- They are both the "real name" it has alternate names (even Dark Factions points that out), and blizzard keeps on switching the terms back and forth in paragraphs about the organization even in the same articles. The current title reflects the original article about the guild, when the guild was first discussed. But as said before both terms are equally correct.Baggins (talk) 06:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well first of all Explorers' League is used as the title and underneath it they say aka Explorers' Guild. Also all the NPCs have their tag saying Explorers' League. Second where does it mention it called the Explorer's Guild and not Explorers' Guild? Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- its also Explorers' Guild as the title in other books with explorer's league either not mentioend or mentioned within the articles. Other examples of Explorer's Guild include Lands of Conflict, and Alliance player's Guide, and Horde Player's Guide off the top of my head. The fact remains the both terms are equal, one is not more real than the other. That's why Dark FActions is specific that both terms are equal. If you read through the book you'll find both terms Explorer's League and Guild are used interchangeably there are at least four references to Explorer's Guild, or Explorerss Guild throughout the pages of Dark Factions.Baggins (talk) 06:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- Once again you are wrong. They have huge letters saying Explorers' League and Explorers' League Forces. Underneath it there are small letters saying aka Explorers' Guild. Also you are spelling everything wrong. There is no Explorer's League or Explorer's Guild. It is called the Explorers' League and the Explorers' Guild. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Let me show you some direct quotes that show that Explorer's Guild is used equally and interchangeably with Explorer's League (besides the fact that the term "also known as" means what it says that its also an official term, and equal);
From Dark FActions we have this beauty;
- "Relationships The Explorers’ Guild gets along with just about everyone, though it still has problems with the Horde." ( )
- As I said before, most of us are dwarves, and we like it that way. We have a few gnomes and humans running around, and even the occasional elf, but by far the Explorers’ Guild is a dwarf organization.As I said before, most of us are dwarves, and we like it that way. We have a few gnomes and humans running around, and even the occasional elf, but by far the Explorers’ Guild is a dwarf organization. ( )
- "for these lads and lasses in Ironforge, make ‘em feel real welcome. Then maybe we’ll actually start getting some information that doesn’t come from the Explorers’ Guild for a change; after all, knights get drunk just like everyone else." ( )
Next a few quotes showing you that Explorer's Guild is a used term as well, and used interchangeably with Explorers' Guild (mind you this is only a few of the references, there are at least 16 in Lands of Conflict alone);
- The Explorer’s Guild has led the way into many of these mysterious regions, but there are innumerable trails remaining to be blazed by the skilled and courageous. ( )
- "Poyli Stonesole is famous in the Explorer’s Guild for his four-year walking journey that took him from Sunwell Grove to Booty Bay." ( )
- "In search of the truth, he was among those who founded the Explorer’s Guild to go in search of titan artifacts that might uncover the heritage of the dwarven race." ( )
Speaking of Explorers' League, the term Explorer's Guild and Explorer's League are used interchangebly in the game, for example Quest:Into The Temple of Atal'Hakkar, "Aid me by gathering the intact Atal'ai Tablets. Bring them to me and I will return to the Explorers' Guild a hero. Together we will share the glory".Baggins (talk) 08:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
So, we have multiple terms:
- Explorer's Guild
- Explorers' Guild
- Explorer's League
- Explorers' League
For simplicity, which is used, where (game, RPG, etc). Perhaps you could add citations after each name so we can count them up.14:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well I'm not anal rentive to want to count up every single citation. I'm not sure that kinda trivia is needed. However to answer your question as far as sources where terms are used.
- Explorers' Guild appears in rpg and MMO. It its comonly used in the rpg (appearing in several books), but is less commmonly used in the MMO.
- Explorer's Guild appears in the RPG. I haven't checked all the sources, but I'd suspect its mainly only used in Lands of Conflict.
- Explorers' League used in the RPG and MMO. Less commonly used througout the RPG (with exception of Dark Factions), it is more common in MMO.
- Explorer's League (never used in any source as far as I know)
That's about it, and I hope it makes things more clear.
I'm reminded of the juggernaught and conjurer articles. When there are equal terms we sometimes use the first term used in lore, but this isn't always the case. We look at things on case by case basis. We aren't saying one term is more correct than another just that they are equal. AS I said before "also known as" means "equal terms".Baggins (talk) 00:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- Are they truly equal? In World of Warcraft, usage of Explorers' League vastly outnumbers mention of Explorers' Guild. The only occurrence of Explorers' Guild I could find was in  . I think having the primary name of the article as Explorers' Guild shows an extreme bias against World of Warcraft. Can you find anything else, Baggins? -- (talk · contr) 7:24 PM PST 21 Aug 2008
- Making Explorers' League into an article rather than a redirect addresses most of my concerns. I do wander why "Explorers' Guild" is not mentioned much in WoW, though. -- (talk · contr) 2:56 PM PST 30 Sep 2008