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Just so we can get a summary of why this is an issue, and what lore conflicts, i think we should build a summary of events on the talk page to ensure everything gets covered in time.
- Hellfire Citadel is built in Hellfire Peninsula. (RotH, WC2, WoW:BC)
- Karador is sieged by the Horde, and renamed The Black Temple from which Gul'Dan rule.s (RotH, WC2)
- The Horde depart from HFC to pass through the Dark Portal to Azeroth. (RotH, WC2)
- The Shadowmoon Clan and Shattered Hand Clan take over control of HFC. (Source?)
- Ner'zhul takes over and renames The Black Temple to Fortress Shadowmoon (WC2)
- Ner'zhul opens new portals in Hellfire Peninsula and throughout Dreanor, tearing Draenor appart and into the Twisting Nether (WC2, WoW:BC)
- First apperance of Black Citadel, located roughly* where Hellfire Citadel is, no mention of it's past, ruled by Magtheridon (WC3:TFT)
- Illidan defeats Magtheridon and takes the Black Citadel for himself. He also closes all the Portals around the Black Citadel. (WC3:TFT)
- After Illidan's loss at The Frozen Throne, he took residence in the Black Temple, formerly Fortress Shadowmoon/Karabor (WoW, WoW:BC)
- After Illidan's loss at The Frozen Throne, he took residence in the Black Citadel. (S&L)
- Magtheridon is currently held captive in Hellfire Citadel (WoW:BC)
- Illidan currently resides in the Black Temple (WoW, WoW:BC)
- *This is a major point of contention, as there are many accuracy, scaling and simplification issues of the WC3 map. This needs to be discussed to determine one way or the other.
- -- 22:44, 1 March 2007 (EST)
- Right. The specific issues I pick out there are:
- A) Black Citadel is located approximately where Hellfire is, hinting at a correlation. (Aside from Outland, the maps from WC3 are relatively reliable)
- B) Black Temple has never been anywhere except Shadowmoon Valley.
- C) This is a retcon in some form or another.
- -- (talk · contr) 23:24, 1 March 2007 (EST)
- Right. The specific issues I pick out there are:
- A) Agreed
- B) Agreed
- C) Probably, but what is the outcome, what parts are retconned and what parts aren't is what needs to be established. :p
- -- 00:07, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Location change due to Outland still shifting?Edit
Could the discrepancy of having the Black Temple/Citadel exist in both Hellfire Peninsula and Shadowmoon Valley at different points in time be because Outland is still shifting around and reeling from the explosion? I can imagine a lot of geographical changes would occur over the 25-30 years since the explosion. Perhaps HP and SV used to border each other and were ripped apart. As for north and south directions, does a big floating chunk of rock really have compass directions? Any direction could be a different one 20 years later if the land shifts, splits, drifts, or rotates.
Map Comparisons Edit
Some thoughts via pictures;Baggins 23:43, 1 March 2007 (EST)
- Er.. lol, i'll just link my image. Possible layout for the map to support HFC and BC being the same. -- 00:04, 2 March 2007 (EST)
- Besides the fact you twisted the map's directions around in the WC3 map... The portal you mark as being the "dark portal" on the map was not the dark portal but the new portal that the blood elves opened between Dalaran and Outland when they escaped the Alliance forces...Baggins 00:11, 2 March 2007 (EST)
- There's no twisting, It was rotated, which means maintains it's integrity completely. North is not always north, especialy in game maps.
- After having played through jsut to double check, the portal they came through was the one originally used to summon Archimonde to Azeroth (so more than likely did not lead to Outland), they reactivated it, and this seemingly changed it's destination. So it could just as easily be the Dark Portal that became the outlet of this portal. Irregardless, it never shows that it is the portal they came through, and the one they did go through was temporary (as most of Illidan's) and closed behind them. -- 01:35, 2 March 2007 (EST)
- I wouldn't go trusting Warcraft III much if at all. Even in-game maps there don't match maps in the manual. Almost directly from south to north we visit Stranhbrad - Brill - Andorhal - Hearthglen - Stratholme. The relative location of these towns is quite different in WOW. As for portals we were closing in in WC3, we were also destroying some 4 portals close to Dark Portal in TBC. --Drundia 15:09, 8 March 2007 (EST)
Black Temple = Black CitadelEdit
While I can't find the discussions on the official forums at this point, I recall there were actually some discussions where the designers were claiming that Black Temple was the Black Citadel. The line in the underdevelopment page, "prime staging ground for the Burning Legion's campaign of destruction" is likely related to those claims, and a refrence to TFT events..
Note if anyone has transcripts of those World of Warcraft forums discussions, or links to them they would be appreciated. -Baggins 23:45, 5 March 2007 (EST)
An interesting note is that, if one inspects the World of Warcraft game files, Naxxramas is occasionally referenced as Black Citadel. Specifically, the model used for the exterior of Naxxramas exists as World->Wmo->transports->blackcitadel->blackcitadel.wmo. Parall4x (talk) 21:39, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
Conflict between history of Fortress Shadowmoon and Black Temple historiesEdit
Due to a conflict between the Fortress Shadowmoon and what we know of Black Temple, I've seperated Fortress Shadowmoon to its own page, which reflects what Warcraft II established about the structure. In that it was destroyed during a battle and reduced to ruins. Ruins that were picked through to try to find the Book of Medivh.Baggins 13:29, 6 March 2007 (EST)
name change Edit
This justification had better be good; with the recent wars on redirects, I really don't want to have to award the "WoWWiki's Longest Article Name" award. Particularly when said longest name isn't quite accurate. -_ (talk · contr) 17:02, 6 March 2007 (EST)
- Agrees its too long. Especially when there is too much confusion and lack of official knowledge surrounding "Black Temples/Black Citadels/Shadowmoon Fortresses/Hellfire Citadels, :P...to know what is what and what is intended by Blizzard for sure.Baggins 17:03, 6 March 2007 (EST)
- 1) The Black Temple has been the stage of the Orc Horde's blood curse, fortress for the then-mortal Ner'zhul, and a prime staging ground for the Burning Legion' campaign of destruction.. Most recently, it has been claimed as home by Illidan, where h and his minions make their bid for power over the remnants of the shattered plane. In my book, that all but confirms that Fortress Shadowmoon is the same.
- 2) Given that this argument is not meant to actually convince the reader that the Citadel is the Temple, the title is inaccurate.
- 3) Given that Fortress Shadowmoon and Hellfire Citadel are also part of this issue, the old title doesn't particularly work.
- Addendum: page moved to old title until suitable one is suggested.-- (talk · contr) 17:09, 6 March 2007 (EST)
- I agree again, with 2, and 3. Only thing we can do is present all the material, and let people interpret things for themselves. You might note I didn't change the topic title, you can thank Apollozeus for that...
- We definitely need to come up with a better title that incoporates everything but isn't too long...
- As for your thought 1, the problem with the underdev quote is that, Ner'zhul changes his base of power like three times in Beyond the Dark Portal to like three seperate fortresses located in three seperate locations in Outland.
- Each one is destroyed over the course of the campaign, however the game makes an even bigger point to point out that Fortress Shadowmoon was completedly destroyed, during the stories narration which is covered during three missions.
- But let's say Blizzard forgot this detail, and decided that the destroyed fortress wasn't destroyed and is the "Black Temple", ok... Then we have a problem with the line "Prime staging ground of the Burning Legion". In that Warcraft 3 established that the prime staging ground was Black Citadel. Additionally the ingame discriptions of the various fortresses have never matched up, so if they are intended to be the same, we have some major artistic retcons happening...Baggins 17:13, 6 March 2007 (EST)
The Introduction Edit
I felt that the claim at the beginning of the article (and supporting external link) were a bit circumspect, since that article does not specifically support the claims made in the introduction. It simple provides information that can be used to support/prove that point, and while it is very convincing, it is hidden within the article and took me a couple readings to spot it. I felt this confusion was unacceptable, so I extended the introduction quite a bit to clarify how the external link was being used.
If I misunderstood how it was being used or what it was being used to support, then by all means edit it, but I urge any further contributors to leave a longer form of introduction intact until such time as a more specific and direct external link can be found. (For example, a specific statement by Chris Metzen that the two names are of the same location would obviate the need for an explanation, but the article currently linked is not that clear.)--Maldian 22:45, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
Warcraft 3 MapsEdit
I ask you to look at all the flaws in Warcraft 3 maps and see if it should even be included in the argument:
- Brill being east of Lordearon/UC (and a lore flaw, as he investigated it without uther in warcraft 3 according to Brill but he would have been only hours away from the capital where he could have alerted his father/called for an additional regiment
- Warcraft 3 World map (distorted, zones shown haphazardly
Add any more you've found for this argument
Move to forum?Edit
Especially since Blizzard's confirmation that they're the same, this page feels rather odd out on its own. Shouldn't it be moved to a forum or something? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 06:04, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Do we really discuss again about it?
- I doubt there is a real use in the forum for this article.
- Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 06:07, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Black Citadel=Helfire Citadel,originally. Edit
The first sentence of the discription in the Black Citadel(TFT) page is "The Black Citadel was a menacing structure in the Hellfire Peninsula region of Outland'. It was supposed to be the same one on the Peninsula where Illidan's forces defeated Magtheridon.
The Black Temple in the Burning Crusade looks more like Illindan's new headquarter/refuge after the defeat in Northrend in the timeline of WOW(in the original Warcraft timeline,he might have been set to be killed by Arthas and the Draenei are not relatives to the eredar.).
As described in Black Citadel and Temple,the reason why designers decided to set the two fortresses/dungeons to be the same one has not been revealed. I deem that an oversight or intentional tampering the story for some reason. Sleeplust (talk) 15:13, September 17, 2015 (UTC)</p>
- See my comments at Talk:Black Citadel (TFT)#Speculation:Black_Citadel=Helfire_Citadel,originally.. -- (talk · contr) 18 Sep 2015 10:06 AM Pacific
- Thank you for the information.I've read that.You're right,I have to admit and accept that story,but I have to blame that Blizzard disconsider the story,or it is placing the story rationality after the "balance",as putting the forsaken into the Horde and the night elf into the Alliance to make the simpler faction system.What an official Headcanon!Still cool,honestly,but not cool enough.Sleeplust (talk) 02:20, September 19, 2015 (UTC)