Template talk:Religions and beliefs

The Lich King is not a deity; he is a demi-god. Same with the gronn. Hakkar IS a deity. There is no source calling Xavius a god or demi-god that I know of. Nor Azshara. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Hakkar is a Blood Loa, I'll answer the rest soon--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Lich King, Xavius and azshara are worshipped like demigods, and "word of god" tell us that the only true god that we are aware of is Elune the rest is all demigods, however we can all classify them as deities because "online dictionary"

"Demigod

1. Mythology

a. A male being, often the offspring of a god and a mortal, who has some but not all of the powers of a god.

b. An inferior deity; a minor god.

c. A deified man.

2. A person who is highly honored or revered."

c.Lich king, Xavious, Azshara and the Gronn are deified Characters, since they are worshipped

Xavious and Azshara are claimed to be Demigods in the Demigod Page

Any more problems?--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the dictionary definition of demigod is. The Warcraft universe has a very specific one, which explicitly states that demigods are not deities, nor are they objects of worship. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

oh ok... but why does it state that these are demigods in the demigod page?--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Good question. I'm asking for a source. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Anyway let me search for a solution then--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:02, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, I strongly recommend that you get the templates all sorted out first and THEN start applying them to pages. It'll save a lot of people a lot of headache that way. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:05, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I thought i had this one figured out until you argumented, i'm only human.

Anyway i think i found the solution, the encyclopedia states that demigods are not gods, and the only god that blizzard has been stated that is a true god or true deity is elune, since i don't remember blizzard ever using the word deity, he could probably stuff it all under this dictionary, "The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.",

Or we could just call it deities and demigods but i think this is more a thing of what words mean rather than what blizzard says

Anyway tell me your opinion, on a way to put demigods in this template.--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:14, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Call it deities and demigods. Lumping religions into what's supposed to be a creature template is probably a mistake to begin with. Also, the god article states that Hakkar and the Old Gods are also gods. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not a creature template, it's a religions, beliefs, deity and demigods template, Hakkar is a loa(wherever loas are gods or demigods is another matter) and can be seen in the loa article, and elune is the only true deity according to blizzard whether this is outdated because of the old gods(don't know if the old gods were already in when metzen made the true deity argument)--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:22, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

According to http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/encyclopedia/417.xml Hakkar and the Old Gods are gods. As for the template, the important thing is to find a focus. If it's about religions, then all the deities should be removed unless there's concrete proof of a religion based around them. Otherwise, it should just be for the beings themselves and the organizations should be removed. But don't try to combine the two. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

It's about deities and religion, because unless you're a "Philosophical religion" you cannot separate one from the other, if it can be paired into a group or a pantheon of gods they should stay, if not they should be put as individual deities, in this case we know that every major deity in this template is part of a pantheon(yes even elune)that's worshipped and every minor deity is either by himself or their pantheon never stated(the tuskar deities might be loas/ancient guardians but that's only hinted never stated)--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I could change Major Deities to Pantheons and Minor deities to Non-pantheon Deities/Deities/Demigods/Deities and Demigods, Which one you think it's best--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, it comes back to FOCUS. There are no religions centered around the demigods. If it's about religions, the template should contain only religions and the particular deities worshiped by those religions. There are no religions centered around Azshara, Xavius, the Lich King, the gronn, any of the night elf ancients... Why, then, should they be included in a template about religions? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The lich king is worshipped by the cult of the Damned, the ancients of the night elves are worshipped trough druidism like the loas are worshipped trough whatever the troll religion is called(does it even have a name?), Xavious is worshipped by the satyrs, and azshara by the naga, i'm not sure of those last two, and the name of the template is the focus of the template (Religions, deities and beliefs) because neither of these 3 can be truly separated entirely, you're right about the gronn trough--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

While some members of the Cult of the Damned might worship the Lich King, that doesn't make it a religion. Druids revere the Ancients but do not worship them. Same with satyrs and Azshara. Remember, by definition, demi-gods are VERY rarely the objects of worship and do not tend to have religions centered around them. The loa, while not gods, are not demigods either. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Dictionary:Worship

"a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object."

The ancients of the night elves are often treated as idols too

Worshipping the lich king, xavious and azshara, may or may not be a religion and i would like to see them go so i won't defend them further.--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Also Cult of the Damned, Cults are Dictionary again

"a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies." It's a religion

"a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc." - Whetever it's the veneration of the person lich king or undeath as a ideal state, doesn't matter to this discussion

Sorry for using the dictionary so much--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

The more I think about it, the more I come back to my original assertion that if this template is about religions, it should ONLY link the religions, not the deities. Thanks to the number of obscure (and possibly only semi-canonical) religions and beliefs in the RPG books, there are a great number of things before worshiped that are neither gods nor demi-gods, and trying to categorize all of those properly in the template would be insane. Make one template for gods and demi-gods, and one for religions, and there shouldn't be much if any overlap. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Meh Okay i've got no problem with a division, but i won't be able to do that for at least 2 days, school and all that shazz, i think this template is complete, it just needs some name arrangements here and there, but if you decide to divide go for it, i'll help when i can--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:01, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Religions and Beliefs template and Deities and Demigods template i think that's the best division--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)