Talk: Rolandius/Archive2

Revision as of 00:10, 6 July 2010

"Grammar edits"

I really don't understand why you keep on changing hyphens and call them "grammar edits", that's not it at all. Furthermore you keep on changing quotes from the RPG books, and while I would like it grammatically correct you'll just have to keep it that way. Also, categorizing something like [[Category:Titans| ]] will make it stay at the very first of the category, while categorizing Titan with [[Category:Titans]] puts it under "T" in the category. g0urra[T҂C] 09:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not changing hyphens, I am correcting em dashes. Ragestorm has said before that no matter what the source, it should be grammatically correct. The changing of [[Category:Titans| ]] to [[Category:Titans]] was me thinking someone accidently put an extra symbol. I didn't know that the symbol "|" was actually something that was supposed to be in a category entry.LOL Now I know. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 09:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

When did I say that? If it's an EXACT quote from a source it should be left alone, no matter how bad it is.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I know that Ragestorm. I didn't change any EXACT quotes, that I know of, except by fixing the spacing. For example instead of "... hi" I would change it to "...hi". I thought they wrote an extra space. I don't call that "changing quotes". As for the other so called "quotes", there is nothing saying they are even quotes to give me a clue. I thought it was someone writing a sentence badly. How am I supposed to know it is an EXACT quote when there are no quote symbols around the sentence or citations or anything? If you don't do that then your actually copying the source verbatim and breaking the rules — at least that is what I heard. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine, but I never told you "that no matter what the source, it should be grammatically correct." I think was g0urra was trying to say is that "grammar edits" gives the impression that you're doing something more serious ant noticeable than changing the length of a dash.-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay I think I got confused. This is what you said, "We're not talking about source material Baggins, we're talking about the English Language. Unless it's an exact quote, what the RPG uses doesn't matter in the least." I thought you were talking about em dashes or something when you told Baggins this. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sig

Because you're not supposed to subst: {{sig}}. Read WW:SIG. g0urra[T҂C] 12:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah okay I guess. Sky helped change it for me last month. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 12:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

You're still doing it. g0urra[T҂C] 13:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, your still doing it Gourra. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Gourra. It says there are two methods. That aside:

Rolandius, change it to:

{{subst:User:Rolandius/Sig}}

I fixed it a bit. --Sky (t · c · w) 17:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Change the box in your preference to that please. Then it should be good. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL Okay hope this works. I am putting what you said under "My Preferences" and then "Signature". Also, I click "Raw Signature" right? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Perfect. =) --Sky (t · c · w) 01:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Cool. Hope this is what some people wanted. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Random WC3 hero names

Please stop adding these to the relatives box of characters. Unless there is confirmed associated lore (rabid speculation on Baron Perenolde's identity doesn't count), we have no evidence that these names have any sort of significance. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

That is why I put (possibly). Also, I already saw it on another Perenolde relative. So if Baron Perenolde is listed as someone's relative on a family member's page, why shouldn't they be listed on another family member's page? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Baron Perenolde shouldn't be listed on ANYONE's page. It's one of the random names that comes with the WC3 death knight. Sylvos Windrunner and somethingorother Shadowsong are also there. Maybe these characters are meant to be other members of the same families, maybe even specific characters or the programmers forgot about it when inputting the random names. We don't know, and since we don't know, it doesn't go in the infobox. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

twins

Just for reference purposes, what's the citation for Nefarian and Onyxia being twins? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well I found it here in the quest The Great Masuerade. I am not sure if that is enough evidence, but it is part of the whole Onyxia quest chain. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. I'll check BtDP, but I'm pretty sure it's not there either. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What is BtDP? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's Beyond the Dark Portal. Darigaaz the Igniter (talk) 06:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay.LOL Well I hope it has something about them being twins. Marshal Windsor is a reliable NPC. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 06:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, that seems pretty clear to me. If thy weren't twins, he'd likely have called her Nefarian's sister instead. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The only reason I'm raising the issue is because information like this should be turning up in more than one place. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleting sections

Please don't use {{Speedydelete}} for sections within articles, just remove them if you believe they don't belong, or talk about it in the page's talk page. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 20:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh ok. I thought they could be used for sections also. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Stormwind

Hi, I think that article Stormwind should be renamed to Kingdom of Stormwind. Now there is confusion because people want to see article about Stormwind (faction from the game) but the problem is, that there are three articles about Stormwind - Stormwind, Stormwind City and Stormwind human. Other factions have no similar problems. We should do something with that. --Novis-M (talk) 15:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

And I suggest that you do nothing of the kind. g0urra[T҂C] 15:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess you are not going to be able to change it. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to say, that half of the pages with the list of all factions (Silvermoon City, Orgrimmar, Ironforge, and similar main reputation factions) links to Stormwind, second half links to Stormwind City. And that's very confusing. --Novis-M (talk) 15:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess you could change the other half of the links to point to Stormwind City? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Question is - should the links point to Stormwind or Stormwind City? Oficial reputation faction is Stormwind, not the Stormwind City. --Novis-M (talk) 15:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL Okay then, I guess you could change the other half of the links to point to Stormwind? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know :) For example Ironforge is the faction, everything links to that page. It is inhabited by Ironforge Dwarves and it is the capital of the Kingdom of Ironforge (nothing links to the article about the kingdom). So we gotta choose what is the faction - Stormwind, or Stormwind City? We should divide whats is the faction, and what is the kingdom. OMG :D --Novis-M (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL Yes I am all confused. I think it is because Ironforge and those other factions don't have big kingdoms. So it is pretty much the city. Stormwind though was not affected by the third war as much as some others, so they have a city and also a big kingdom. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thats true because no other known kingdom is as famous as the Stormwind one. So maybe it would be better if the page Stormwind was renamed to Stormwind, and the page Stormwind to Kingdom of Stormwind. Because, there is no "Stormwind City" faction in the game, only Stormwind. We can only guess if it is related to the city or to the kingdom. I think to the city (Blood Elven faction is also city - Silvermoon City, same as Undeads, Taurens, Orcs, Night Elves...) --Novis-M (talk) 15:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Gourra said no one should change it. I don't know then. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Stormwind is the kingdom and area, Stormwind City is the faction and city. What's complex about that? Kirkburn talk contr 16:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're wrong - in the game, there is no faction called Stormwind City, there is only Stormwind faction. If the faction will be called Stormwind City, we can change name of Ironforge to "City of Ironforge" etc, and thats nonsense. --Novis-M (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well I think Novis-M is trying to say that some people think Stormwind is the faction and Stormwind City is just the city. If you look at the reputation pane it does say Stormwind only. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That's a point, yes, it does need clearing up. I suggest taking it to the talk page of the articles. Thanks! Kirkburn talk contr 16:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay Novis-M, talk about the changes you would like by commenting in the talk pages of whichever page you were asking about. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There appears to be confusion here. In the published lore, "Stormwind" is the name of the kingdom, and Stormwind City is the capital of that kingdom. The citations are given in the articles actually. There is a second definition of "Stormwind" that being a "Faction" within Stormwind.Baggins (talk) 17:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Where have you been? I have not seen you around in awhile. I think what happened is that most of the other factions that are major powers are cities. For example, Ironforge, Orgrimmar, Exodar, Silvermoon City, and etc. are cities and a faction. With Stormwind, you have the city, the kingdom, and then the name of a faction. So Novis-M was trying to figure out if the faction Stormwind was Stormwind City like the others or Stormwind Kingdom. I am not sure myself, but I do know that Stormwind has not suffered as much in the Third War as others so I said that they have a huge area under their control still. So I thought maybe the faction Stormwind could be the whole of Stormwind since they have so much land intact that they are not just a city with small land around them. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Bolding

You should only bold the first instance of an article's name per WW:MOS; not every instance of it on the page. --Sky (t · c · w) 07:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL I just commented on your page. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 07:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you learned nothing? Only both the first instance of the name in an article, or don't bold at all, and if the first instance of the name has a title attached, bold the whole thing. It's not that difficult. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well then just say bold the whole "name" and "title". I thought it was only supposed to be the page's name that was bold, not their whole title. Also, I haven't bolded more than the first instance of the name in an article in 2 weeks so I am not sure where you got that from. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

[1] Sorry about that, didn't look closely at the date. And I have told you about the name and title before, if you've been keeping track of my edit summaries. Anyway, now you have the instruction, on to the next crisis. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yea, Kirkburn told me also that aka's should stay bold too so I started leaving those alone. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, on that count he and I might disagree... Anyway, just leave any bolding in the lead as is. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh ya I know. Just saying in case you see me bolding the aka's and wonder why. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 14:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Creating new articles

When you create new NPC articles, please use the NPC boilerplate. g0urra[T҂C] 12:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well something is better than nothing. I am just adding the little information I stumble on. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 12:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Then at least mark it with {{Stub/NPC}}. g0urra[T҂C] 12:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh woops okay. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 12:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Isha Awak

It's fine to add "The quest" to "Isha Awak sends the...", but you shouldn't use the {{quest}} template for for same page you're linking to, thats why it was reverted. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 02:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL I know I messed it up. I went to edit it back and it was reverted already. You could give me 5 seconds to fix it. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the one that reverted it, I'm just letting you know why it was.

^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 02:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well I don't mean you as in Coobra, I mean you as in the person who did it and reads this. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Not a forum

WoWWiki is not a forum. Non-editorial discussions on talk pages are frowned upon, so please don't add more of it. g0urra[T҂C] 03:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, you go on and tell that to everyone else on the page too. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

We usually do by putting a swift adminy end to the discussion, but personal visits are made for those who are constantly starting non-editorial discussions. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It was editorial, I wanted to know if his occupation was pilot. Unless it is a different page you are talking about. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, having reviewed some of your history, I can see that many of the discussions you've started have the appearance of you asking a question for discussion's sake or personal clarification. Talk:Wrath of the Lich King#Trailer or Talk:Queen_Azshara#Description_of_Azshara do NOT look like editorial discussions. Re Gazlowe, I can see how it might be an editorial question in theory, it also doesn't look editorial. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess our definitions of editorial are different then. I asked the trailer question for personal clarification, yes. The Azshara and Gazlowe questions I asked because of conflicting descriptions of those characters. Are you saying I cannot point out conflicting ideas about a character in the talk page? I mean come on, I have seen people talk about so and so character is ugly or so and so character would be a great wife in talk pages on here. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages (apart from usertalks, the Village Pump, and the Warcraft Pump) are meant to be for discussing editorial changes to the article only. Editorial meaning formatting, reorganization discussion and the like. The actual content should only be discussed if you think something is incorrect. As for the discussions you mention, one of two possibilities arises: 1) check the dates, those discussions are likely before we began enforcing this and 2) though we enforce it, we wind up ignoring one-off non-editorials, but as I stated above, you've begun several. Personally, I usually only clip off discussions that become editorial. In future, just address personal clarification questions to the Village Pump or the Warcraft Pump.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok for example, if I think some creatures called "Kraken" should not be called "Kraken", I have to use the Warcraft Pump and not the Talk page to mention it? Isn't that editorial? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No, that sounds as if it's fine for the talk page. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay I am getting confused as to what is editorial and what is not. I thought my other questions about Azshara and Gazlowe were editorial also. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Images from WMV

Yes, you can add images (from WMV) to npc articles that have been removed from the game, however, try to use [Hue 160, Sat 0, Lum 48], [Red 51, Blue 51, Green 51] or [Hex #333] for the background color per WW:IMAGE. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 04:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

You mean, make it a nice transparent PNG, Coobra, of course. The background colour option is a fallback. Kirkburn talk contr 04:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Just don't use them in the infobox if you can avoid it. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 04:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I know how to change wowhead.com's jpeg images into Png images which is what I did. I have no idea about the background thing though. I put it in the infobox because there is no way we will ever get a screenshot of those people removed from the game, unless someone is holding onto a screenshot still and has not uploaded it. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Who knows... I have tons of images stored away... most of which still have the default name... And yea, what kirkburn said.

^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 04:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well isn't it better to have a model image in the infobox then to wait for a screenshot which may or may not ever get uploaded by someone who may or may not have it stored away? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, if there's no other option, fine. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Scanned artwork

If you're going to scan in artwork, to upload onto Wowwiki, please make sure to clean it up first. That is make sure that the image is only the image and doesn't include text from the book you scanned it from in the background. We really want high standards for images used in pages, especially for main article images.Baggins (talk) 20:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I know, but I am still learning how to take out unwanted parts of images. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Use photoshop, or just MS Paint. It's not hard. g0urra[T҂C] 11:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

How come you call the peasant image I uploaded earlier a "duplicate" of your uploaded image, then put them both on the peasant page? The only difference between those is that the one you uploaded is facing to the left. Deleting your versions. g0urra[T҂C] 11:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Two reasons. First, mine is a png image which if you read above a few posts is what Kirkburn said to try to upload it as. Two, the image of one peasant looking in one direction is from the Warcraft I Manual and the image of one peasant looking in the other direction is from the Warcraft II Manual and has the artist's signature on it. I don't know why they did it like that. I told Coobra about it on his user page, but I guess if I knew you were the one that was going to get confused I should have told you on your user page. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 11:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

He suggested that they would be PNG if they were supposed to be transparent. If you don't know how to do transparent images then just stay away from image editing. At all. Second, uploading different images because they are facing in different directions doesn't make an excuse to upload more versions of the same image. Please don't be an arrogant fool. g0urra[T҂C] 11:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow you sure make me want to contribute to wowwiki. Cool. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 11:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

WW:STUB

Do not create pages just to stub them. This is per WW:STUB. Thanks. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!•C207,729 contributions and counting) 12:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"Trivia"

Just a heads-up, if you're adding the mythological origins of something, title the section "inspiration", not trivia, unless there's other trivial information to add. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

But that is how all the other pages have it. I haven't seen inspiration sections only trivia sections when talking about lets say Elves or Orcs. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Siren, Eonar#Inspiration_and_Speculation, Elune#Inspiration. If the article already has a trivia section, then the note can be put in there for the time being. Basically, trivia is interesting or fun information which most people might not know, but most people are aware of mythological connections. You should also be aware of Mythic_creatures_appearing_in_Warcraft, where we've catalogued most of this already. The page itself is up for deletion because we're thinking of putting inspiration sections in all the articles, but we might wind up keeping it.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay I will start putting Inspiration sections next time. But I am sure you are aware that there are dozens of pages that just have a Trivia section and then a sentence about a movie, book, or t.v. show. Also there are dozens of pages that have a Trivia section and then a sentence about some mythological reference. I could probably fill a page with those links. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

We're in the process of revamping how mythological references are cited. Also, it's up to you, but I wouldn't bother with RPG specific creatures. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I saw the Manticore and other pages so I was inspired. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "inspiration" isn't the best word... What do you think of "Myth" or "mythological basis" for creature pages and "inspiration" for characters? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay Myth then for creatures/beasts and inspiration for characters/objects. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

war leader

What's your citation for that? -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

For the whole page or some part of the page? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 14:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In the House of Wrynn infoboxes. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh from the page War Leader. It says in Warcraft I that King Llane Wrynn I passed the title to you when he died. As his father King Adamant Wrynn III was the preceding leader during the war, I think King Adamant Wrynn III passed that title to King Llane Wrynn I naturally. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Err... was it mentioned specifically in the briefing, or are you basing this on the fact that war leader is what's listed as rank on the victory screens in the last missions? As for Adamant, Llane could have made up the title himself or claimed an older title that Adamant didn't. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No not on the rank, although it is a rank — but not the highest rank you can get. It is from the Human mission "The Temple of the Damned". After Llane dies it says you are passed on the mantle of War Leader. I am guessing it is like how the President is Commander-in-Chief during war time. The King is War Leader during war time. I am assuming Adamant was War Leader before that since they had been fighting the Orcs for awhile now, and Adamant was the highest leader while he was alive. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That's too much circumspeculation (a word I made up meaning speculation that relies on other speculation) for the infobox. Judging from that, it's like a more localized version of Supreme Allied Commander... well, I guess it can stay in Llane's infobox, but I'm removing it from Adamant's. We have no idea how much of Orcs & Humans, particularly terms that appear only once, is still lore viable. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay sounds good. I will also remove Adamant from the War Leader page. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Old Habits

You're falling into your old habits again... with not placing categories or stubs on your newly created articles. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 03:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL Okay thanks for the notice. I think I had forgotten about that part. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Art of World of Warcraft

Don't add articles about artwork that are merely one line of text. If you're going to do it then add it to the main article, The Art of World of Warcraft. g0urra[T҂C] 02:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Careful with the Art of World of Warcraft. It is mainly a source of concept art rather than a lore source. Try not to add concept art titles into lists of race or species names unless the race can be further confirmed by other sources. Limit references to a possible race concept to speculation sections if possible please. Also avoid assuming something is the same as something else because they might share the same name or title it doesn't work that way. Try to avoid that kind of speculation, and don't pass it on as a verifiable fact (ex. trogladyte issue).Baggins (talk) 04:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It's an artbook... location of the art means nothing. Emerald Paradise is not going to be related to Darkshire in anyway... same with other places you're currently making notations about.

^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 04:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Well if you notice all the art on the pages are connected in someway. I am not saying location only, but like all images could be huge mountains or all images could be in one area. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please avoid crazy uncitable or uncrossreferenceable speculation. Please avoid putting speculation outside of speculation banners... If you do it too much it could lead to a ban. You might remember some in the past that have been banned for it.Baggins (talk) 04:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I am citing it and avoiding speculation. I mean the book isn't called The Concept Art of World of Warcraft. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

If you think you are avoiding speculation then you are failing miserably. It is pure speculation to state something (I paraphrase your comments); "Might be near each other or connected because they are on the same page".

Also the various artwork books do not need to be called the "Concept Art of"... series, because concept art is art, and the books have a combination of concept art, and commissioned artwork (artwork created to be used in other official sources, coverart, ingame art, rpg art, etc).Baggins (talk) 04:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel like getting my The Art of World of Warcraft out, so since I have The Art of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade out atm I'm going to use that as examples... Same page, Arakkoas and Arcane Golem... related? The Broken and Arcane Golems... related? Flesh Beasts and Draenei Pack Animals (Elekks)... related? A couple more Outland Abyssal and Gluths... related? Fungal monster and Imps... related? So as you can see, location means nothing, sorry if this comes off a little mean.

^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 05:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok well they did it different on that book. I will show you examples now from this book so tell me if I am wrong. Flora. It has two pages of different flora which is related since they are all plants. Knight's Hollow and Duskwood. I think they are related. The Twisting Nether and Outland. Outland is in the Twisting Nether. Idrassil, Magic Mountain, and Icecrown. They are all tall locations. Thunder Bluff and The Thousand Needles. I think related. See what I am saying? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

In the way they organize their artwork sure, though as Baggins pointed out, it could simply be in alphabetic order... but that still doesn't mean they could be near or connected to each other as you were adding to those pages.

^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 05:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It isn't alphabetical order because they have some Swamp of Sorrows art first. Well I meant to say is "connected" as in location with some pages and others by subject. Knight's Hollow and Duskwood are examples of location. Indrassil, Magic Mountain, and Icecrown are examples of subject. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Page moving

While yes the page moving feature is open for all to use, please be careful not to move pages unless you have taken the time to discuss the reasons for the move first. That is make sure other people agree with the move. Also try to make sure it won't break too many links on other pages. Avoid double redirects please.Baggins (talk) 04:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I am going to undo a lot of my page moves later because I thought about it again and have some different ideas. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Creating new articles

Do you ever look at other similar articles when you create new ones? For example the World of Warcraft: Issue 13 and World of Warcraft: Ashbringer: Issue 3 should be compared to World of Warcraft: Issue 12 and World of Warcraft: Ashbringer: Issue 2 respectively. g0urra[T҂C] 12:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Ya...I don't see what your saying. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 12:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay now I see. You wanted me to fill the whole page? I thought someone else would add on to it. I was just starting the page off. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 12:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Either you add the information that is available, complete with templates and the boilerplate, or you don't. g0urra[T҂C] 12:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Well that is your opinion. Other admins have said something is better than nothing. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Edit summaries

For the love of all that is holy.... stop filling the edit summary with vague comments like "grammar edit", or "self edit". Use the edit summary the way it was intended, give a bit more detailed summery of the reasons for changes, and a bit more detailed description of what you changed.Baggins (talk) 12:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay I was trying to be brief, especially if I am doing a few edits in a row or it is an edit of my own I just made a mistake on within the minute. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm guilty of forgetting to do this myself at times. But please try to use the show preview feature if possible to avoid the "within a minute" problem.Baggins (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This is your last warning on this issue. Your edits have been repeatedly not always correct or up to our standards. Thus we need you to give a more detailed summery of exact changes as you make them. If you keep on using vague summeries such as "factual correction", or "self edit" you may be prevented from editing in the future. If you don't have enough room to give a detailed explanation in the edit summery, then give the explanationin the talk page.Baggins (talk) 04:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought you told me to start using the "Standard summaries" bar. That is what I am doing instead of just a few of my own words. In fact, that is what everyone else is doing by the recent edits I am looking at right now correct? Also, I haven't used "self edit" since you told me yesterday. I don't know where you saw that. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm telling you to give an exact description of your change. If its a grammar edit describe the specific type of grammar edit your making, and in which portion of the article.

Don't just say, "factual correction", describe what specific facts you are fixing, and which portion of the article.

Etc, etc. If you don't have enough space in the edit summaries bar, then put your explanation in a new section of the talk page.

If you are going to edit at the pace you are currently editing this is important in order to keep track of the reasons for your edits.

We need even more detail from you than the normal user, as you are currently in a probationary period (as a suspected problem user), for mistakes you have done recently to policies and accuracy.Baggins (talk) 04:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I told you a few days ago I was going to move a lot of this stuff back to where it was remember because I moved it incorrectly? Also, read the Kalimdor page. I have cited Teldrassil as a continent and also the citation about Mulgore and others being subcontinents is wrong. Those are regions aka zones. The subcontinents are Northern, Central, and Southern. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The citation is a reference to a certain map, the link has been given. Yes the map doesn't make much sense compared to later maps, but yes it split Kalimdor along several large, regions. IN that particular map, it has Mount Hyjal, Mulgore, Durotar, and Kalimdor as major regions. It uses the same font and text size as the regions shown on the eastern kingdoms side of the map, Azeroth, Quel'thalas, Lordaeron, and Khaz Modan.

In anycase the point is not to discuss individual edits here, but that you need to now give detailed descriptions of all your edits from now on. Until we deem you are out of the probation period, and deem that your edits are to the quality that we expect from wowwiki users.Baggins (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay but guess what? Azeroth, Lordaeron, etc. have been called continents in lore. Mulgore, Durotar, etc. have been called zones not continents...at least to my lore knowledge. Also, look at the map on the page below. It has Mulgore, Darkshore, and half a dozen regions on the map not continents. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for following instructions. It makes much easier to see when you take things out of context, or add comments that are of speculatory nature.Baggins (talk) 05:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well check out Kalimdor talk page. I am not sure what your logic on that is but a continent is a continent if so called even if its an island or not. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

So, by that logic, if I said GM'S Island was a continent, it would automatically be registered as a continent? Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. If it was from a source and not made up. Why would you deny a real source saying that something is a continent? If it was only one mention though and several mentions that it was just an island I would still keep it in the page for posterity somewhere because you can run into sometimes sources that contradict each other, but that does not mean you should remove one like it never happened. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't. I'm simply saying how saying "a continent is a continent if so called even if its an island or not" is foolish like that. Because like I said, by your logic, if I said such a tiny island like GM's Island was a continent, no doubt someone here would rush to edit that into the GM's Island page. And then we'd most likely get flamed since the information was pretty innaccurate, considering GM's Island is nothing more then a tiny island. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 15:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I am saying if it is from a source...you know cited? Not just made up by a user. A source exists calling Teldrassil an island continent. I didn't say this. All I did was see the information and then put it on the page with a citation. So far I have not seen anything saying GM island is a continent. A continent could be a continental landmass or a continental island. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I know that. But honestly. One source says Teldrassil is a continent. One. That doesn't automatically make it a continent. If it did, no doubt Teldrassil would be labeled as a different continent then Kalimdor in WoW. Well whatever, I doubt I should be meddling in affairs that aren't particuarly related to me, so I'm done on this subject, and I'll continue watching the war between you and Baggins go on. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 16:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I know it is one source. I am not saying to announce to the world that Teldrassil is a continent. It should be mentioned though somewhere on the page and not removed forever. There is no war going on. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

-stares at the various arguements between Rolandius and Baggins- Well, I'm not particularly sure if I believe you about that, but oh well. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Move along nothing to see here. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Relevance issues

I'm sure Ragestorm has told yo before, about relevence issues. Something that may be intended more as an injoke or easteregg may not merit having its own article. The info probably should be folded into the closest related article, i.e. the existence of Eng-land is not confirmed beyond the reference of a possible deranged character. References to it are not likely to be expanded on, and therefore it would fit better as a sidenote for that NPC's character page. It probably shouldn't even be treated as a real location until something confirms its existence. If the subject of an article is likely to require nearly 98% speculation, and known information is likely to only fill in less than even a full sentence on its own, its probably not worth having as its own article, and probably should be folded into whatever related subject spawned it.Baggins (talk) 12:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The NPC that talks about Eng-land is crazy? Wait a second I remember you said injokes are not okay but eastereggs are okay as in this example.Flowerpicker clan Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Flowerpicker clan has substantial relevance as its existence is being part of hidden game code, and part of the game's internal mechanics. IT is a hidden game feature. Plus, the main description of the hidden file is more than one setence long, and the main description is not made up of 98% speculation.

It has slightly more in common to references to file names like "crack elf" (although crack elf could be folded into blood elf). Unlike crack elf, however, flowerpicker clan does't really have anything it can be directly folded into, as its own subject altogether.

Also one reference to "eng-land" is not even remotely similar, nor useable for creating a page, it doesn't have any detailed info whatsoever, its not a hidden feature in the game code. NOw if more references to Eng-land appear in the future from more than one character, then I'd say those then it would have more relevence and worth having an article discussing known facts of said place if it exists or not. But as of right now any info related to it and any speculation can remain in the character page of the one who brings up her said belief. Now, I seem to recall Ragestorm has gotten onto you over Eng-land issue in the past... I'd suggest you leave it that and don't argue on the issue...Baggins (talk) 13:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay I took out Eng-land. I don't think Ragestorm said anything about my Eng-land page since he left it alone. I think he talked about my Pinkspear page though which was removed and then even deleted from a page it was folded into. I think you put it back into the folded into page though. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember ever seeing your Pinkspear page. I do recall the Eng-land page, and I recall that there was discussion about it, though it apparently wasn't with you... ---Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought someone said something about my Pinkspear page? They said it was just an in-joke and removed the page and then even removed it from the page it was on previously where I got my idea. I think Baggins then told them it was okay as just part of that previous page because it was an easter egg. I could be mixing things up since it was around 2 months ago. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

References in folded pages are fine if it can be confirmed to be related to the subject of the article. There are alot of injoke references in language pages for example. Eng-land's relevence is pretty much limited to Natasha. Since its an offhand remark with no details telling us if its real, her imagination, or simply an injoke it probably shouldn't be put into pages like Continents (which would be applying a bit too much speculation). If it was real, for all we know it could be a town... But that's the problem with it, there isn't much that can be done with the info besides speculation about it...Baggins (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was okay on the Continents page. You have South Sea in there. It is just speculation that there is an unnamed large island in there. Also, the section did include "large islands or nations". It could be a large island or nation. It is much better than "some islands in the South Sea". Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Your starting again Baggins. You deleted ominous island which is in lore and has several sentences. You just told me a few mins ago to write summaries when I edit yet you just deleted two pages with summary of nothing. Is this going to start again? I can delete too. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the page was the page name. It was a topic without a true name, or official title, just a vague description. I see we don't have an actual island article. I'd probably suggest the way that continent article is being used it probably should be renamed "land masses" to avoid confusion. IN anycase I folded the island into the continent article for the time being, as it is better related to that topic, and I removed the title you used since it isn't an official titel for that island. I've tried to point out that the island doesn't actually have a name, and have reworded the info to reflect that fact.

Also you must be blind, I gave reason why I deleted the page in the talk page...Baggins (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Land masses is a vague name too. Continents is not. I think there shouldn't be any islands or lands on that page unless they are some sort of continent-type landmass. Just put all those islands, nations, or whatever on an "Island" page. Also, you just told me write "better" edit summaries and then you left yours "blank"? You didn't say anything about talk pages. Also another thing with my pages on subjects I found in The Art of World of Warcraft. Gourra said don't make pages out of those brief subjects just list them on the Art of World of Warcraft page so I said okie dokie. Next thing you know I look and find a bunch of brief pages made by people on subjects found in the Art of world of Warcraft. I am confused. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 13:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

They're just trying to slow you down... you're making too many pages, most of which are (and you have to admit) pointless. Don't get me wrong, you do make useful inputs and additions, but some pages just aren't needed.

^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 21:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"Not an official article name; "southern islands" could be any "south" island."

I.E. southern islands is a generic description, its not a proper noun. This would be the same issue as you using the description "ominous island" as if it was the actual name of the island, despite the islands not actually given a name. The bigger problem with southern islands is that its a description used for alot of islands found in the south, or the South Seas. If it had been capitalized in its original source "Southern Islands", theyet it would have been a proper name, and you would have been justified in making the page, but it wasn't. This is also some what related to one of the previous mistakes you were warned about, "not to create speculatory titles" (stuff like ). Finally remember, "...but other people are doing it" is not a valid excuse or justification for ignoring warnings, it is an "Appeal to Common Practice" a type of fallacious reasoning. Remember two wrongs does not make a right.Baggins (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I am still confused on why I was put on the list. I didn't re-create any deleted pages more than once. I just asked in the talk page why they were deleted. I thought I was told to use talk pages? Each page has a talk page correct? Also, where did I create a page that was confrontational? This is silly. I myself revert vandalism when I see it then next thing you know I am thrown on the vandalism list. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a quota on the number of warnings you have to give each day or what? I can't even comment on my own user page without some warning. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

For your future reference its a "violation list". It is not "vandalism list". Being a suspect doesn't automatically make you a vandal. However it does mean that you commited some violation of policy. It serves as a second degree warning, for a person who commits the same type of violation more than once (after being warned for the first violation). Being a suspect also doesn't mean you will automatically be banned. Basically if you are suspected, you need to look at what you are being supected of, be warned by it, and do not repeat the same type of offense in the future.Baggins (talk) 02:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Someone edited the page and added some comment in addition to Gourra's. Is that allowed? I never even talked to that person. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if someone notices that you may be a repeat offender (by seeing past listings on the page), they can point that out by adding it to the violation list. It is allowed, and it can be used to determine your position and punishment if you make future violations. The violation list is used by all wowwiki members.Baggins (talk) 02:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL okay. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Signing article

I thought by now that you know you shouldn't sign in articles, and especially not through recreating deleted articles. There's talk pages for that. g0urra[T҂C] 14:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

One, Ragestorm already told me that and I saw your comment on the page summary. You don't have to tell me in triplicate. Second, I thought there wasn't a talk page if the page was deleted and didn't exist anymore so i wrote in there on accident. I then wrote in the talk page but I guess you missed that part. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 14:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Relevance, DNP, and ignoring warnings from admins

For ignoring all the warnings given you by various admins, and continuing to be belligerent in adding non-Warcraft-related articles, and because you have been banned before for shorter periods for the same reason, I am blocking you from editing for 1 month. Your appeal, if you have one, may be posted on this page or e-mailed to me, or Kirkburn via the e-mail user functionality of the wiki. See you in a month. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!•C207,729 contributions and counting) 04:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise. What non-Warcraft-related articles? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The most recent ones are Beggar, Commoner, Novelist. I've been deleting others I saw you create in the past couple of days. --Pcj (T•C) 04:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

And what is the matter with them? They were all on wowwiki listed as professions. I just added a page or some NPC's to it. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

See Baggins's first post to you under #Relevance issues above. --Pcj (T•C) 04:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

To clarify commoner was ok, as it is an actual RPG NPC Class, with a definition. However, you redlinked generic things in the article and made spinoff stub pages. We have gotten onto you many times for pages of this sort, and deleted many such pages, fowler comes to mind as one of your first such pages. Also as I've told you in the past, avoid making stub articles and pad them with non-warcraft source information (do not go to a dictionary as a citation, for example). Avoid using real-world definition sources to support the creation of a page.

I also should mention that many of these aren't actual rpg classes, though the professions mentioned in the RPG. They are only titles.

Also a template is not a proper citation method. Do not use it as a substition to using ref, or {{cite}}, etc.

-Baggins (talk) 04:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Ya I can't remember "fowler". I went to the Crafts and professions and Commoner pages and saw those professions. I check WoW and guess what? They are in the game. I thought I would just make pages for them so people can see that there is an NPC called Beggar, there are novels, and there are weavers. I was trying to say that they are "commoners" which is itself an RPG class. What is the difference between my pages and Lumberjack, Military commander, and Mortician? I am not sure what the template thing your talking about is. If it is the Lady Prestor page you are talking about all I did was copy the way the reference was made for the other Prestor pages in the relatives infobox. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Any replies? Beggar is real, Commoner was already there, and novels are real. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked out beggar. You were not exactly wrong for it's creation. But you went about makng the page improperly. As a npc you should have put the npc/stub template on it, and avoided using RPG template. That only confuses people. You also need to avoid using the wrong categories.

The rpg template is not a citation method. Do not put it on the page in place of actually using "cite" or ref commands. That only confuses people.

Weaver, is not a profession page, its the name of a Dragon npc.

There are novels, not novelists. novelist should be redirected into "novels", which I've done. A novelist by itself is not a proper page name.

Mortician had its own unique article in the RPG (an a few paragraphs devoted to it even, no need to pad it with non-warcraft definitions). Stuff like that is great. Its the reason why we have pages for stuff like Grunt, or Peon.

Military commander has its own article in the rpg, and a specific warcraft definition (it isn't cited to a non-warcraft source), and appears in several books in the RPG (its actually a game term as well).

You made lumberjack out of nothing (and yes its a stub, and bad). It has to go in its current state. You need to avoid things that do not have their own article sections, and lack official definitions.

Finally just because something is mentioned in a sentence under another topic doesn't mean its worthy of having its own topic.Baggins (talk) 05:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't exactly get a chance to do much. I was banned within a minute. I put the RPG last and I put it because there is the WoW mention and the RPG mention. I am pretty sure if I didn't put the RPG part I would have been told why didn't you put the RPG part. Weaver I didn't get the chance to realize it was a dragon I thought it was some weaver page someone made. Once again I was banned within minutes. I linked wood chopper to lumberjack I didn't make up that page. A lumberjack is a wood chopper. You are just making up stuff for some reason. Those were all good links. Beggar is an actual NPC. Wood cutters are Lumberjacks. There are novels in the game, not to be confused with just regular books. Also, what happened to this? "He is free to make edits, but anything you guys have problems with, come talk to me and I'll chat with him. I'm not so bothered by his edits as it seems the rest of you are, so maybe it would work." Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Lumberjack, I looked at the page just minutes ago. It is not redirected to "wood chopper" and the entire page was made by you. I hardly made that page up... as for your last part, that discussion was between you, me, sky and ragestorm. PCJ was not part of that discusison nor was he part of any problems that appeared on that page. He is not bound by whatever went on in there, and is free to make his own decisions based on your past actions. He is free to admin based on his own decisions. It seems he decided that your list in suspect, as well you continued mistakes made recently was enough to ban you. Just because novels exist in the game, doesn't mean "novelist" is a relevent term or important. Especially since yo had to give it a non-warcraft source definition. I had to go about fixing all the mistakes you made in those articles after you made them. I abide by his decision.Baggins

Finally, no you wouldn't have gotten in trouble for not putting the rpg template up. RPG template should only be used if the article info is orignally from the RPG. Something that appears across several sources probably shouldn't have any template. {{multisource}} would have been a better option, or no template at all. Stacking templates is bad, as is putting the fat templates in the middle of articles. Also as I said before using the template is not an excuse for properly using {{cite}}, or ref features. YOu have been warned previously for not corrently citing material.Baggins (talk) 05:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

How are you saying I made up the page? All I did was put wood chopper since wood chopper was there already. Okay so Pcj was not aware. Tell him about it. You can't just say okay here is a solution woops nope nevermind your banned. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be confused, PCJ was in his right as an admin to make the decision on his own. The idea by sky waa suggestion made in confidence to me, ragestorm and you, and no one else. Nor was it a freepass to continue making mistakes. Also as far as I know PCJ has more experience with Administration than sky, ragestorm or even me. He he been an admin on several wikis. He may even have seniority on this staff (though I don't know for sure). I must warn you again its not my job to step between you and PCJ. If you want to tell him, tell him yourself (you will not pit me against him, and I will respect his decisions, whatever they may be). But remember as an admin he can make his own decisions, and he doesn't necessarily have to agree with another admins suggestion.Baggins (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll apoligize for accusing lumberjack as your page. It was actually coobras. I've taken the time to fix it by making it an disambig page, as there are alot of lumberjack NPCs in WoW.Baggins (talk) 06:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Ya, this is a bit too much trouble. You guys are just making up half of the reasons to ban me. With your enthusiasm to ban me you have missed the evidence. It is like you do not read half of what I write. Pcj banned me because he said the latest pages I made, like Beggar and Commoner, were DNP. Beggar is an NPC in the game so I don't see how that was wrong. Commoner I never even created that page. Now you said that somehow I had said that you made up some "wood chopper" page and that I made it up instead. Neither of us made up the "wood chopper" page. All I did was link the word "wood chopper" to the Lumberjack page so people can see the word "wood chopper" and go to the profession, Lumberjack. All I did was see the Commoner page and it had a dozen professions, which I then cross-referenced with that page that listed all kinds of professions so that I was sure I was making some profession up and to avoid exactly what is happening now. I was trying to link those commoner professions to the correct profession page or else make the page like with Beggar. Your acting like I just thought to myself what professions and pages should I make up and make people mad. I'll make up Beggar, novelist, tavern owners, and craftsmen because they doesn't exist in WoW. I didn't do that. I cross-referenced and check for NPCs on all those things i made, except novelist which I put two "romance" novels that are in the game as evidence. See what I mean? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 06:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Look, PCJ is the one who made the decision its not my job to step in between him and his decision. Infact, if you missed his first post, appeals must be made to him or User:Kirkburn. I've tried to explain, to best as I know it, but its not my place... I'll leave it to you three to discuss this out.Baggins (talk) 06:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay I will ask him. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Pcj over here

I guess this is the quicker of the three ways since e-mail may be slow. Pcj, the Beggar page is not DNP. The commoner page I never even made up. The Novelist page was made because there is a profession called "novelist" in lore so I made the page so I could list the two romance novels that so far had found and which are different than just regular in-books. All those pages/links I made in the last few hours are real. I found them on the Commoner page, which I did not create, and the Crafts and professions page. There are tavern owners, craftsmen, beggars, etc. in lore and WoW so I wanted to link them up, like I did with tavern owner and wood chopper/Lumberjack, or at least help by making the pages and then putting the NPCs or items into those pages, like I did with Beggar and Novelist. I didn't think to myself and say okay I am going to add bus driver and fireman so I can make everyone mad on wowwiki. I hope you understand. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going give you some advice. You really should follow his instructions and email this message to him, and/or kirkburn. Also you need to discuss every single reason given for your ban, not just these few. From what I can see in his first post, he didn't just ban you because of these, but banned you for other things as well. Actually he gave a lot of reasons that you haven't responded to. Also you must understand, that even if he changed his mind on what you discussed above, doesn't necessarily mean he will ignore all the other reasons he gave for the ban (i.e. change the above won't necessarily change his ruling). All the other reasons (beyond the ones you discussed) could still be taken into account, and reasons aren't cumulitive, any single reason could be enough to get you the ban.Baggins (talk) 06:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah okay. I thought he said I could use my talk page to ask him also. I am not sure if he is online. Well, I will e-mail him then. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 06:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Baggins mentioned those articles when I asked him what all the problems were with you, and from when I looked at them, the articles you created (or what you submitted to existing articles) were simply definitions of what they were in real-world terms and/or did not make any sense (both of which are against DNP). Also, you were banned because you continued to defy admin's warnings (see above: 1, 2; and similarly in the past, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 10, 11, 12, 13) not to create articles such as these (i.e., NPC pages against the boilerplate), or create one-line articles (i.e., stubs) padded with non-Warcraft-related information, or fail to cite references. --Pcj (T•C) 13:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I hope you read my e-mail to you about the solution Sky came up with. Also, some of those pages Baggins told you about originally, he has since told me that it wasn't my fault, like the Lumberjack/wood chopper page and the Commoner page. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 15:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Having an admin hold your hand to edit does not excuse the fact that you are in violation of policy already. --Pcj (T•C) 15:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

We came up with that plan to hold my hand before you banned me. No one had told you yet I guess so I don't think I should have been banned so quick-like. This is especially true when some of the pages, that you told me that you had asked Baggins about, he then later told me that they were not all my fault. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The ban is not based on what Baggins said, it is based on my assessment of your edits combined with your history. --Pcj (T•C) 16:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I know but some of the assessment on my edits was based on what Baggins had said. You told me you had asked him what pages were the problems. Also, is my history going to affect me forever? If I made a mistake like 3 months ago that counts against me forever? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Remember, your ban is also because you were ignoring warnings from admins, not to mention what appears to be attempting to pit the admins against each other. None of my assessment of your edits was based on what Baggins said, he did mention that you weren't listening to him and asked me to step in; from that perspective, yes, ignoring and disrespecting Baggins and other admins did bring about your ban more quickly. Double jeopardy is not involved here, the fact of the matter is that you continue to ignore warnings and treat the situation like you can do whatever you want on this wiki. We've asked you several times (at least thirteen separate times as it appears above) to change how you edit but you haven't listened yet. Hopefully this ban will cause you to step back and take a look at what the admins have said. --Pcj (T•C) 16:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not an administrator fight organizer I am telling you. Also, that is like saying I have more power than all the admins somehow. I don't know why Baggins asked you to step in since he knew about the idea we had talked about plus he told me you were the one that banned me it had nothing to do with him. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Baggins didn't ask me to ban you, he asked me to review your situation and attempt to communicate what he was trying to tell you (but you weren't listening to him). --Pcj (T•C) 16:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay he said to communicate what he was trying to tell me and so your answer was to ban me? That doesn't make sense. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, you weren't listening. Maybe you will in a month. --Pcj (T•C) 16:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well Baggins had already agreed on the idea. He said you are the one that banned me. So was it you or him or both? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I banned you for the reasons stated above upon review of your edits and history (as stated above). My review was initially requested by Baggins (as stated above), but he had no part in the ban except to offer his approval of my right to ban you (as stated above) after the fact. --Pcj (T•C) 16:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Well then he should not have requested anything because he had just agreed to the previous idea. Why would he agree to something with me then request you look into it? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

You will have to take up that fact with him. In any case, I did review your history and found it worthy of a ban. --Pcj (T•C) 16:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

No way. Baggins said to talk to you because the ban was all you. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The ban was my doing and was only initiated by Baggins's request. If Baggins had not requested and I had looked through your edit and discussion history, I would've come to the same conclusion. Do not continue to attempt to pit administrators against each other; this is your final warning on this issue. --Pcj (T•C) 16:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay so now I have the power to control admins? Interesting. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 16:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphens N-dashes

Actually, Rolandius, what you're putting in aren't hyphens, they're em dashes. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought somebody called those hyphens and not em dashes. Well whatever it is officially called, your supposed to put a — in a lot of sentences and not a - or a --. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 00:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Definetly an em dash. Hyphens are used when combining two words, ie, Governor-general or Mrs. Barker-Finch. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

That is what I thought. Someone told me I was grammar checking a lot and putting hyphens. I was using — though. Well what I am trying to say is that a lot of times I see a - or even a -- when a — should be used. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 00:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The publishing world is kinda mixed on the issue. RPG actually uses ~~hiphens~~ n-dashes more than it uses em dashes.Baggins (talk) 00:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

We're not talking about source material Baggins, we're talking about the English Language. Unless it's an exact quote, what the RPG uses doesn't matter in the least. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Its not just the RPG, it occurs on the official site as well... As for "english language" actually this goes more into linguistical arguement... Style can vary depending on various authors and publishers... Many things that would be considered grammatically incorrect in one grade school choice of grammar rules (though not necessarily anothers') are ignored for style once authors reach the real world... This is why you'll find authors who use run-on sentences (Ernest Hemingway IIRC)... Yet, authors who break the mold in linguistic grammatical use, are often considered some of the greatest in english authors... Sure its a paradox... But its something I learned in my linguistic classes that language is far more fluid than what one grade school language course might tell you is mandatory...

Its actually somewhat funny that teachers make students read works by famous authors, yet, those authors style may break the rules of accepted grammar. So paradox between how one writes and others write exists. Yet, the author isn't considered to be grammatically incorrect, since he or she is famous, and thus allowed to ahve a different style due to artistic differences.

Also since going to university I've found that various formating and style guides such as MLA, APA, or Boston styles may differ on citation and grammar rules... To say there is a single set of "english language" rules is sort of one of the great misleading bits of elementary and high school education.Baggins (talk) 01:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

In any case, hyphens or em dashes are fine. I don't see a reason not to change hyphens to em dashes when appropriate - but I wouldn't say either way is "better" for the purposes of the website. Same way US and British English are fine, but can be switched (GB-->US) when appropriate. Kirkburn talk contr 01:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but in those same classes, if the teacher or professor saw something and corrected it, I don't think you can say "but Ernest Hemingway did it". When you are a famous author, then you can write run-on sentences all you like. We should try to stay as grammaticaly correct as we can. With some areas though, we might run into a situation where either way is okay. In that case, someone telling the other person that they changed the sentence just because of one symbol is crazy. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Style can also vary by region, one grade school may tell you to use emdashes another may tell you to use regular ~~dashes~~ n-dash. In my experience I've seen different english books by different publishers sometimes give conflicting "grammar" advice between each other. This probably has to do with the fact that there are several different english dialects with their own types of "grammar".Baggins (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I've resurrected this old discussion to point out something Wikipedia (Wikipedia:Em_dash#En_dash_versus_em_dash;) explained about style of n-dashes (the hyphen like dashes often used in the Warcraft Books) verses m-dashes. It does point out that was right that grammar rules vary by different editors and books of style. IT shows that grammar rules can vary from one grammar rule book to another and from region to region.

=== En dash versus em dash ===

The en dash is half the width of the em dash. The width of the en dash was originally the width of the typeset lowercase letter 'n', while the width of the em dash was the width of an uppercase 'M'—hence the names. A more correct definition of the em width is the point size of the currently used font, since the M character does not occupy an exact square in many fonts.^[1]

Traditionally an em dash—like so—or a spaced em dash — like so — has been used for a dash in running text. The Elements of Typographic Style recommends the more concise spaced en dash – like so – and argues that the length and visual magnitude of an em dash "belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography." The spaced en dash is also the house style for certain major publishers (Penguin, Cambridge University Press, and Routledge among them). However, some longstanding typographical guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style still recommend unspaced em dashes for this purpose. The Oxford Guide to Style (2002, section 5.10.10) acknowledges that this style is used by "other British publishers", but observes that Oxford University Press (OUP) does not use it. In practice, there is little consensus, and it is a matter of personal or house taste.

The en dash (always with spaces, in running text) and the spaced em dash both have a certain technical advantage over the unspaced em dash. In most typesetting and most word processing, the spacing between words is expected to be variable, so there can be full justification. Alone among punctuation that marks pauses or logical relations in text, the unspaced em dash disables this for the words between which it falls. The effect can be uneven spacing in the text.

En dashes are often preferred to em dashes when text is set in narrow columns (as in newspapers and similar publications).

The spaced em dash risks introducing excessive separation of words: it is already long, and the spaces increase the separation. In full justification, the adjacent spaces may be stretched, and the separation of words is further exaggerated.

Baggins (talk) 08:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay could we get a distilled version? I also think I have read that depending on your computer/keyboard you might not have all the different varieties. Luckily, wowwiki has two types of inserts below mostly commonly used. Wikipedia says that there are four common types of dashes ( ‒, –, —, ― ) and two common types of hyphens ( -, ‐ ) so it can get confusing. Especially if you want to count the uncommon types. Now tell me if this is right or wrong or if it goes either way. I have been editing like so. I use the first "insert" below on wowwiki (–) with no spaces for hyphens and I use the second insert ( — ) with spaces for em dashes. I will now write a few sentences to illustrate this:

My favorite levels in WoW were levels 65-70. (correct way?) <---- I used the first insert, the hyphen.
My favorite levels in WoW were levels 65 - 70. (wrong way?) <---- I used the first insert, the hyphen.
My favorite class in WoW — don't get me wrong they all are good — is the Paladin. (correct way?) <---- I used the second insert, the em dash.
My favorite class in WoW—don't get me wrong they all are good—is the Paladin. (wrong way?) <---- I used the second insert, the em dash.

Now I am not including quotes from sources since they could vary, I am just talking about user edits. I have seen everything from a (— ) or a ( —) used to a (--) or a ( -- ) used, I think, incorrectly. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 09:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd say I fall into the group that prefers n-dashes over m-dashes. As that was what I was taught in school. I prefer the spaced n-dash over closed.

I can understand where your coming from as you were taught the em-dash method instead. I rather don't like the look of closed em-dashes.

Hyphenated things? I prefer closed.

I agree that double dashes(the short variety) or minus signs should be avoided altogether. Although personally I can't see much of a difference between the long hyphen (whatever the second hyphen is called) and a n-dash.

I can understand where the problem gets worse based on limits to keyboards/computers though. The average joe probably doesn't even know ascii commands.Baggins (talk) 09:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay my last paragraph was just cloned by you. Yeah, I don't even think I can make the en dash with my keyboard. Wikipedia says on Macs you use option-shift-hyphen for em dashes (—). That works. Then it says use option-hyphen for en dashes (–). That doesn't work it just makes a hyphen again for me. I think I can use the minus symbol Insert below on wowiki though to sort of look like a en dash (−). For some reason the minus symbol on my keyboard comes out as a hyphen (-) but the minus symbol below looks like (−). Well I guess I learn something new everyday. I hope Pcj reads my e-mail soon so I can figure out what is going on. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 10:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm yes the long minus sign does look like an n-dash.Baggins (talk) 10:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind. Typing option-hyphen (–) does make a en dash only after I hit "save page". Interesting. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 10:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Operator could I get Baggins

Okay Baggins if you are out there. Pcj has transfered me to you. Why did you tell him to "look into the problem" when we had already talked about it and it was all done earlier? Also, you told me the ban had nothing to do with you and that Pcj had just decided to ban me all by himself. Rolandius (talk - contr) 16:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did try to discuss this with him, while we were discussing it in here last night. I even told him Begger wasn't a problem except that you didn't clearly show that it was an in-game npc (remember you need to use {{Stub/NPC}} anytime you make an npc stub). You can't expect people to understand that it is a valid article if you don't point out in the first place. Alternatively, you should have been more specific giving out the details of the NPC, its character levels for example, so that people are clear that it was a mob.

I let him know that commoner by itself was not a problem. However, we did discuss that linking generic titles and then making "stubs" from the is a problem (the warning I gave in edit summery before he banned you). As Ragestorm suggested in his talk page which you ignored, you should have asked before creating such pages, "The only recommendations I have are getting a second opinion when starting new articles". You should have gotten a second opinion before you started the new article so that everything was clear from the start.

You know you for one make alot of boneheaded mistakes (too many) & need to be more careful. You wonder why you are confused all the time? Well its probably because you leave us confused alot of the time. I've had to come back and fix alot of things you left unfinished. You need to use the correct templates dependent on what you are making. Also thank you for pointing out coobra's generic page creation. We shouldn't have to repeatedly warn you about this.

Also we shouldn't have to warn you that if you create a page and put something on the page from any source you need to put down the citation. Failing to put down the citation is a violation. A citation isn't a sure method that your article will be accepted or allowed, but allows the admins and book keeper the ability to check up on the source see how valid or relevent the reference really is in comparison to a wide range of sources (yes we cross reference information) and clean things up. Leaving out citations is a repeated offense and is not tolerated. We have banned people in the past for this repeated offense alone. Like I said before, yes you did put up the RPG template, but that was not an excuse for the lack of a real citation. This is not an appeal to common practice, it is our policy.

Yes, you are right Coobra has made some questionable pages, and didn't even disambig them correctly (he will get a warnign for that). However, I have warned you in the past that "appeal to common practice" is a fallacy and will not be used in support of your personal mistakes. Two wrongs do make a right. Even if others do it doesn't mean you will get off from doing it. But thanks for pointing out another person who has done it, the people you have tattled on will now be taken into consideration.

Finally, since PCJ banned you. There isn't much I can do about it (I'm not going to reduce the time of the ban, I gave you that mercy last time). But like I said yesterday you have a long list of mistakes, and he decided it was a reason to ban you. I might have shown you mercy (perhaps too much) by holding off banning you much earlier (believe me I thought about it). Pcj decided you had made too many "mistakes" and violations. Remember even if a violation is made by accident it still is a violation, and they can stack up.

Also, let me warn you that you have bewildered nearly every single person on the admin staff at this point. Except for perhaps Sky. In discussions they have all pretty much agreed that you were on your way to a ban, and that they were all thinkingo of banning you. Ragestorm and I have given some restraint and held back. He was going to leave you in the hands of one of the head administration, as he didn't want to act himself.

Since quite a few people were are in agreement that you have made too many ban worthy offenses, I will not interfere. I agree with them. I was too lenient, I showed too much mercy. Frankly the usual method for problem users who make mistakes too much (yes, m1330/kesmana made many of the same mistakes as you, you never saw the overall history about him) is that if they can't be corrected, and repeated similar kinds of mistakes even after being told to be careful ultimately get banned. He started out very much like you, and we gave him alot of mercy, and he got banned several times. He's now cooling off for a year. If he comes back and starts up again, he will be banned permanetly. This isn't hatred against the person, we just can't let people get away with repeated offenses. His sockpuppet was only the latest in his line of offenses. We have probably shown you more mercy that the average person. We have banned people for less... You are welcome to look through the archives of the violtion list for a huge number of reasons we ban people.

Btw, verbally attacking another user yesterday by accusing them of being someone else over your created speculation, should have given you an instant ban... Flaming someone & making accusations, because you disagreed, is one of the top offenses, and you should have known better. We have also told you in the past to be careful about not entitling something based on assumptions. Calling it a "mistake" doesn't quite cut it. Saying I made a mistake is not a valid excuse for repetive practice. Remember someone can only cry wolf so many times...

Feel free to discuss your position with Kirkburn if you like. But I have said my peace. There will be no more arguements with you.-Baggins (talk) 18:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

That is silly coming from you who refuses to stop argueing. The point is yesterday we resolved this and I thought the problem was solved. Instead of talking to Sky like you agreed to you went to Pcj and told him to "look into this". What Pcj then did was look at Beggar, Lumberjack, and some other pages and thought okay he made this all up and counted it against me when Beggar was a real page and some other I never even created in the first place. What are you talking about citations? I have cited the stuff I put on the page. You have taken cited material and just made it disappear. I remember Kirkburn saying that just because a cited material is contradicted doesn't mean it disappears like it never existed. You point it out on the page. I am pretty sure you know this. Also, your telling me to cite stuff that is obvious like an image. I had the image of the NPC Beggar from WoW on there. How much more citation can you get. I even linked the commoner page so people could see that there are also beggars in the RPG. Where in wowwiki does it say "when creating a page you must 100% finish it". That is why people can edit so that others can add onto a page additional information. Also, I have never said anything about Coobra. I haven't even said his name once until now and you are coming out with "Yes, you are right Coobra has made some questionable pages, and didn't even disambig them correctly (he will get a warnign for that)." That is you talking Baggins not me. I did not tattle on anyone. It looks like your the one pitting people against each other now. First you agree with a solution, then you tell Pcj to go look into it so your not the one seen as doing anything. Now your saying I said all this stuff about Coobra. And about your famous fallacies, I never said hey Coobra did something why can't I? If you read my talk page people will see the stories you are making up. I said I never made some pages that you had accused me of making. Now your taking that and saying, "okay you didn't make those pages up but now Coobra made it so he is in trouble thanks to you". What is that all about? I think you know better than to do that. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to say anymore after this, but I donh't what what your talking about but I didn't agree to anything with sky. I guess I did glance over sky's message early on, but I Didn't really look at until you to after you brought it up. Yes while he did type it out in confidence to both ragestorm and I... I never actually posted any agreement in the thread. I haven't even decided if I agree or not on that issue. As for banning you it was PCJ decision, not mine. All I did was discuss the issue of your edits and page creations with with him.Baggins (talk) 02:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I didn't bring it up to you. You already knew about it. I replied on Ragestorm's talk page "okay sounds good". You argued more on Ragestorm's page and I fianlly said "ok this seems to be over lets go contribute to wowwiki". You did agree with it as you say above on my talk page when I asked why Pcj had banned me. You told me he didn't know about what Sky, you, Ragestorm, and I had been talking about so you cannot get in the middle and I should talk to Pcj. I found out later that you actually told Pcj to "look into it". Interesting. Now today I read about how I somehow told you about Coobra and who knows who else's entries being bad or something. You make up good stories Baggins. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I see Baggins is still talking badly about me he just can't stop. I am not even able to edit and yet he keeps padding the violation list with things he thinks up. What is this story of you being my mentor? Another great story from Baggins. And that user yesterday attacked me. He said Thrall was not in the Arathi Highlands during Warcraft III, that he starts in Kalimdor. He asked me how do I know Thrall is in the Arathi Highlands? I told him well by the look of the demo it says Thrall starts in the Arathi Highlands. Baggins then told me it is my fault that I didn't direct the user to the Exodus of the Horde part of the game. I told Baggins that the Exodus of the Horde is on the same page just one or two paragraphs below. The demo also led me to believe that the orc in the starting screen is Thrall since he has chains on his hands and you hit "play" and then your in the Arathi Highlands as Thrall. It is only the demo you can't see every campaign. That user then attacked me saying it was not Thrall because the rocks and soil are wrong and that it looks the Barrens, Kalimdor. Of course Baggins went to the violation list to add more stuff about me. When I asked why everytime I post something asking a question he adds more to the violation list he replied that he doesn't...then went to the violation list again. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, cut it out. This is WW:DNP, further offenses will lengthen your ban and I will protect your talk page so you can't edit it. --Pcj (T•C) 03:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay tell Baggins about DNP then. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Your ban has been lengthened to 3 months for attempting to play admins against each other, as I warned you above. --Pcj (T•C) 03:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay go ahead make up stories willy nilly. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello. Yes, I have been vaguely following this; no, it is not going to change anything. You are about the only user we have ever had who has required the input of almost every single active sysop on the wiki. They keep giving you advice, you keep trying rebuttals for it all. At some point you have to realise the admins are the ones who have been around longest, and best know how the wiki runs. I trust them - you should, too. Of course, everyone should get constructive criticism if needed ... that being said, when I keep hearing one person complaining about the admins, I am inclined to suggest that it is not the admins at fault. Kirkburn talk contr 03:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I know they have been around a long time that is why I have been trying to talk about it and yesterday a solution was thought of. After agreeing with it though, it was almost immediately broken. How can I trust some of them now after stories are just made up about me and agreements voided? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

As I have been asked, I am fine with the idea of Sky mentoring you. Edit: noting the protection of this page, the admins will have an off wiki discussion about the situation. Kirkburn talk contr 12:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The new deal

Here's what we (the admins) have worked out. Your ban will be reduced to the original month, and after that you will be on strict probation for at least the two months after (the remainder of your current 3 month ban), under the careful tutelage of User:Sky2042. You'll have to work with him on what you should and shouldn't do, how you should edit, etc. However, the rest of the admins will continue to watch you, and will alert Sky if there's any problems. Just beware the dark side of editing, and your re-training should go well.

While you're banned and can't edit, you might want to take the time to read the WoWWiki policies in order to familiarize yourself better with them.

I am going to release the protection on your talk page, but don't spend a lot of time editing it except to respond to things said here. You're still banned, and if I see too much non-reply editing going on I will protect the page again. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!•C207,729 contributions and counting) 19:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay I will read them. I guess my user page counts as something I cannot edit? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Dark Iron Forge

I saw yesterday that someone mentioned in the "edit summary" of their edit that Rolandius, that is me, had put "Dark Iron Forge" in the Elemental Plane page. I never put that, and I think it was added before I even joined WoWWiki. Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked your edit history. Yes doesn't look like you added that. Don't worry.Baggins (talk) 02:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Strangely enough it looks like something I must have accidently copied over from somewhere else when I copied the list into the page. Anycase its removed now, so it shouldn't be misleading to anyone at this point.Baggins (talk) 03:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know you could edit the "edit summary" afterwards if you put something in you later don't want in there. Well it is probably copied over like you said from a previous edit you might have done of the same page. It might have been some other stuff I had put into the page? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Hillsbrad maps

I saw this map which illustrates Hillsbrad's location by combining two maps, one from the orc campaign and one from the human campaign.[2] Shouldn't the orc campaign map from Attack_on_Zul'dare be used too? Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The Hillsbrad map that combines the two maps, is to show that there is a certain grove of trees that appears in both maps, although the scale is different in the two maps.

Unfortunately the Attack on Zul'dare while known to occur in the Channel Islands region, the map shows completely different shaped islands from the other map. None of the islands quite match up to any elements on either of the other two maps. So there is no way to point out where it is exactly in relation to the other maps, even if you changed its scale. It doesn't quite match up with any specific elements in the map. Because of this there is no way to know exactly where its located in relation to the mainland.Baggins (talk) 06:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Although the maps both show those grove of trees, it could go either way. In some ways it looks they match on the left side, but then again the right side of the two maps do not match up even with the scaling fixed. Also, how could the orcs start right on top of Hillsbrad in one mission, while in another mission it is Hillsbrad on that same spot. The top map would have to be elsewhere.

The Attack on Zul'dare map takes place at Hillsbrad I believe. It looks to me like a zoomed-in portion of the the bottom part of Hillsbrad. Those islands that don't match up are just too small to be shown on the larger map. When zoomed-in to show the Attack on Zul'dare area, you can then see more small islands that is all I think. Although you could say that the map is not of Hillsbrad and the relation to the mainland is unknown, it does say in the mission briefing that you, number one, are attacking an orc base south-east of Hillsbrad and, number two, are building transports in order to begin crossing the channel. If that map shows you somewhere in the channel islands already then you would have to wonder, number one, how did you get to the island if your mission is to build transports to cross the channel in the first place and, number two, why would they say the orc base is south-east of Hillsbrad if your not going to be starting at Hillsbrad but instead on some island? Your starting area is north-west of the orc base so it would seem to be a part of Hillsbrad. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 11:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In Attack on Hillsbrad, you leave from an island, to attack the coastal township of Hillsbrad. In Raid at Hillsbrad you attack the township from the grove. Both maps are said to take place in the "township of Hillsbrad", see official strategy guide for more details. They have to be near each other, and the township is established to be a coastal town. In anycase that map is in the speculation section.Baggins (talk) 02:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

user:Rolandius/Mentor

Go go go. I set up an initial template for you. --Sky (t · c · w) 05:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay let me get my folder of ideas that I have come up with out. It may take awhile since it weighs many tons. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 07:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back!

Remember to contact me, if you have any questions. -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:32 AM PST 26 Sep 2008

It is good to be back. LOL Thanks. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back, Rolandius :D I see you're being much more productive this time around, adding much-needed quotes from manuals and fixing other stuff. Good to see you're back in action. Just make sure you refrain from using your 'self edit' and 'new info' tags and you'll be fine ;) Dragola (talk) 12:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

right, "self edit" and "new info" is a bit too vague.Baggins (talk) 17:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay I will try to expand on those. When I put "self edit" it usually means I accidently put something myself, like maybe spelling orc as orcc, and then I fixed it right away. New info I found from the pull down menu so I thought that it was okay, but I guess I will add more info. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think there is a little checkbox for "minor edits", like fixing a spelling mistake. Never used it to see what it does though.Baggins (talk) 02:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Red links

Please avoid making links to anything that doesn't have an article yet. Also make sure that if there is going to be an article make sure its relevant and has enough material to fill it out. If the limits to information is a sentence, but you feel that there is something important about it, then interlink to a wikipedia article on the subject.Baggins (talk) 05:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean that it is okay if I remove red links that I find on pages? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If its a red link to an NPC leave it. If its a redlink to a generic profession. Probably best to remove it.Baggins (talk) 05:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Okie dokie. Sometimes I see red links in a page and I never thought of removing them. The red links I have seen range from a book author's name to items. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Ingame items should be red. They will and should have an article infact you might choose to put up the stub/articles, and use the laurlybot template to request an article. if its a generic non-ingame item that can't possible have a releveant article, then it probably shouldn't be linked. Author names are certain worthy of having articles, so red links are ok.Baggins (talk) 05:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course this ties into avoid making articles for every RPG item... We don't want to plagiarize the entire book of M&M, and MM&M :p...Baggins (talk) 05:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay so occupations and articles of non in-game items that cannot possibly have information are okay to remove. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there any situation in which we could make pages for RPG items? I am guessing RPG items that also exist in WoW are okay if they are not on WoWWiki yet? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If the item has a picture in the rpg, then it stands out. Those can make good articles. If the item is an item in WoW MMO, then add the lore to the wow item page, it enhances the article. If the item is incredibly important to the point that it has a connection to relevent characters from the games, then it might be worth adding an article. I'd suggest asking in your mentor page before hand though.Baggins (talk) 05:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay I will. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Languages

Yes, there are various groups, or organizations that might know a particular language. That info is best put in the language sections of the individual race if it is truly relevant. The language pages themselves should be mainly devote to the main race that developed and uses the language.Baggins (talk)

What if it is only "a few corrupt orcs" or "a few night elves"? Do we write the language in the infobox and then note that is it "a few" of that race that know the language? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

If its a few, its probably not exactly relevant. Any individuals can learn any language. The infobox shows the ones the RPG points out as being the main primary and secondary languages they are more likely to learn.Baggins (talk) 05:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well I am not sure then. This wasn't the race infobox but it was in the Languages of Azeroth infobox in two different sources. What I found said that some languages are "restricted". That is why the RPG put it in there so that you know the "typical speaker" of Eredun are Demons and a few corrupted orcs and the "typical speaker" of Draconic are Dragons and a few night elves. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 06:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That thing is more of a suggestion box anyways. The real detailed language stuff in in the individual race pages.Baggins (talk) 06:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay. They made it sound so official with the whole "Languages of Azeroth" table they had in the RPGs. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 07:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, its true info, it doesn't contradict anything, see cycle of Hatred (for corrupt erudun speaking orcs). Dragonsworn are often night elves, and they speak draconic. Its just that few, isn't as relevant as "most" of the race speaking the language. There are alot of languages that "few" of any race might speak :p... For example a "few" humans speak eredun as well (in Cycle of Hatred). But its a very minor detail in comparison.Baggins (talk) 07:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay. That is why I thought it would fit better in the language pages. Oh well a few isn't really significant anyways. I am sure there are a few human cult members that know Eredun out there also. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 09:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Template languages

Putting "sure" languages down on the half-breed templates is somewhat questionable.

1. They are templates put on top of the main half-race. (half-orc, half-elf, half-ogre). Therefore the language may follow the main half-race's language, with minor change change of "primary language" if stated. But no changes to secondary languages. This is an very strong possibility I think.

2. there is the rule that racial blood follows certain racial skills of a certain race. This could include language skills, "possibly". This would assume that the secondary language skills change. But its not stated specifically.

3. Assumption that the language follows the "human" parent (for half-elven varients, and half-human half-ogre), or orc for the half-ogre magi... I think this third idea is the least likely.

Now, I'd personally suggest probably just not touching on secondary languages unless we have a better idea, from an actual RPG player what the rules mean exactly in english. Since half-blood elves don't exactly exist yet, its a little less misleading. As we don't know how they will be exactly.

But half-human half-ogres, and half-ogre magi which might exist presently its very misleading. Baggins (talk) 04:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I just went with what the RPG said which was "if you want to play as a 'race name' then you should play it as a 'race name'" or sometimes the RPG says "if you want to play as a 'race name' then you should play it as a 'race name' with these skills different". For the half-human half-ogre, it says "a half-human half-ogre is considered a human and an ogre". For the half-ogre magi, it says "Half-ogres are considered ogres for spells and effects, however, and thus they qualify for the ogre mage template". Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is the way those are worded it could be interpreted different ways. Languages have nothing to do with spells, and they aren't exactly "effects". Effects actually come from how a spell will work on the individual as far as I know. Nothing to do with languages. Again different half-ogres but all based on the main half-ogre rule system, but with slight changes to certain aspects of the rule.

Also a template is something put on top of another race. So half-ogre magi would be the regular half-ogre with half-ogre magi template put on top of it. Thus it would be a mix of both sets of rules. Kinda dangerous to interpret the non ability stuff like languages, when it could be the regular half-ogre language rules. The spells and effects are only going to be things affected by various spells and feats, I.E. combat abilities (as far as I understand the rules).

AS for half-human half-ogre, again its "special abilities and effects, that a half-ogre magi and half-ogres are considere a human and an ogre". This has nothign to do with the language, it has to do with how spells and combat abilities interact with the character if used on the character. Additionally the ogre mage template is an optional rule, "if the gm allows it". Which means not all half-ogre magi would have it.

The idea here is to try not to take the information out of context. It has a specific purposes for the RPG game mechanics, and has little to nothing to do with lore.

Honestly I'd say avoid touching the game mechanic portions of the sourcebooks, unless you have knowledge of what it means.Baggins (talk) 17:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Further, you missed the fact that even regular half elves, and half-ogves have a similar rule;

"Elven Blood: For all special abilities and effects, a half-elf is considered both a high elf and a human." racial ability.

"Mixed Blood: For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered both an ogre and an orc.

It has nothing to do with languages section as you can see.Baggins (talk) 17:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I will try to leave it alone like you said. I thought it meant language also, but I don't know enough about "effects", "racial ability", etc. since I don't actually "RPG". I like reading/knowing about it though. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Brann

Quick note- when referring to something Brann is talking about, please refer to him as Brann Bronzebeard (full name and link). While most of our readership knows who he is, it flows better (OK, not quite the right term, but I hop you get the idea) this way. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes I will do that. I got used to just calling him Brann too much. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

You can keep doing it later in the paragraph or article, just check to see if he's mentioned earlier in the article. If he is, you can call him Brann or Bronzebeard without a link. If it's the first time, do the full one. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay cool. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Source templates

Avoid using more than one per article. They look rather unpressional stacked, or scattered throughout an article. Either use the multisource one, or use whichever is the primary source of information.Baggins (talk) 04:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realize we had a multisource template. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it needs a better icon to make it stand out.Baggins (talk) 04:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it new or did I just miss it? I have never seen this template before on pages. I have only seen the method I used where users have put in various templates to divide the page's information. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 05:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to have to do this...

You have been resorting to edit wars, removing cited information (maraudon) that was added from Lands of Conflict, etc. We have told you not to remove information if it is properly cited, and relevant. You have been given warnings... You choose to just ignore them and argue... I will not be argueing with you from now on, I will not have my time wasted. I'll just take actions. If you choose to argue, then you will be ignored. I even warned you about the purpose of the "minor settlement" section to which you ignored it and continued to remove the info.

Due to the fact that you haven't been listening, then the next course of action is to put you on the next step after your previous punishment. I believe you were at one month ban previously. This will put you at the next option, the three month ban. Unless someone above me believes you diserve more.Baggins (talk) 07:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Everything you said about me you have been doing for days now actually to me. You revert everything I did tonight, you removed cited material, you are constantly arguing even after I said I was not putting anything on WoWWiki about that subject, you are making up information not in the sources yet you ignore the sources when I put them, you are calling things minor settlements when in the RPG they are not called minor settlements or in some cases don't even give us a population number, you are taking some things under Settlements and Sites and ignoring the Sites half of it, you are attributing information that is speculation and saying it is from the sources, you ignored at least 5 RPGs and counting of sources, and dozens of other examples. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 09:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Rolandius, but there are times where a user warned by admins multiple times on multiple actions either has to admit he is wrong, or comply to the "An admin's word is final" rule.

The community accepted to give you another chance, you didn't take it. Your loss I'm afraid. User:Adys/Sig 09:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Read above. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 09:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You read above. An admin's word is final - if you cannot accept everything else, that's all it comes down to.

I suggest you don't troll your talk page before we remove you the right to edit it aswell. Good night. User:Adys/Sig 09:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I meant read my entry above. Those things I listed he did. This is my talk page which lets me respond so I am not sure what you mean. Who smiles when they ban someone? I guess it is a funny thing for him. If you look at my edits 90% are reverted by only one person. My Mentor page which was supposed to be me putting things and Sky seeing if they are revelent became a place for Baggins to find me and argue with me again. Makes you think. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 09:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't mix up removal of info due to "relevancy" issues as removing cited info. If you had taken the time to create valid topics (not just some interpretation based on a random word in an article), or not put up disjointed info (random comment that doesn't fit into the flow of the subject), then they would likely stayed. However, you seemed to overlook an important point. We don't have to include every single reference to the subject, especially ones poorly paraphrased. Sometimes its better to just stick with the general overview of the topic being discussed. Its not about the quantity its about the quality. You can continue to argue, or make accusations about me based on your own fallacious arguements, but this may just lead to the permanent ban. I'm not going to play your games anymore...Baggins (talk) 10:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I was given the go-ahead to make those pages. I didn't make them without consultation. All you do is talk about fallacious this and fallacious that. You are the one that decided to go on my Mentor page and argue with me as a admin even mentioned to you twice. I am not on your user page arguing with you. You are making up things about me. Here is an example that you put on the Violations List. "suggesting that one of his page ideas will be groundbreaking, only for it to be a minimal lore stub". What does that even mean? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 10:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Giving the go ahead and breaking policies to do it still doesn't get you off the hook. Especially if its a bad quaity article, or misleading.Baggins (talk) 10:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I will not allow this without diffs. He is unblocked until such time you can reproduce them. Even if you can produce them, it will be after my judgment and not yours. While both you and I are involved in this, I believe that the blocking administrator should have been both uninvolved and not solicited without examples of diffs that were not taken out of context. We do not block for "bad quality article"s, we fix them. If he broke the rules, let's see where he did so. Rolandius is unblocked for now. I will also consider Adys involved here. --Sky (t · c · w) 16:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Sky, those decisions have been discussed beforehand and taken without your consentement being required. Sorry to say, but for what I've seen you have not been doing a good job at mentoring. User:Adys/Sig 17:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Why am I blocked for a year now? Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The admins are currently discussing it. I apologize for the confusing, multifaceted way in which this situation is being handled. --Pcj (T•C) 01:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I was just wondering because I just logged on and saw that I was unbanned, rebanned, and banned for an extra year all in the span of 12 hours while I was offline. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Rolandius has been unblocked and changed to a "suspect" in WW:V. Please put explanations with diffs (besides the Maraudon edit which I'm aware of) for blocking Rolandius on my talk page. Requests to discuss on IRC are not acceptable. If I do not see any explanations, I will keep unblocking Rolandius. Unlike most admins, my consent is required (bureaucrat > sysop) and I will only defer to Kirkburn or Wikia personnel. I agree with Sky and I don't want to see any subgroup of admins trying to enforce blocks that resemble actions based on personal grudges more than a reasoned approach and benefit of the doubt. Most of the reasons for ban/block are generally petty.

Up to now, I've tried to give various parties (Baggins, Adys and Pcj, mostly) the benefit of the doubt. If I seem to be giving Rolandius special treatment, I am, because I think WoWWiki would be much worse off with him perma-banned than restrained.

On the other side of the coin, Rolandius has made some serious errors in judgement. However, he has also been subjected to far more oversight and restriction than any other user who has contributed so much to WoWWiki.

For now various parties need to go to their respective corners and "cool off" for a bit (this means you too, Rolandius; please restrict changes to User:Rolandius/Mentor until this situation is settled). --

Fandyllic (talk · contr) 12:20 AM PST 6 Oct 2008

Thank you for letting us know in advance and discussing your actions with the admin team, Fandyllic. This is the most stupid and fucked up decision I've seen done by you.

I'm out of this affair, you guys sort it out yourselves. User:Adys/Sig 01:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Fandy, the involved admins are discussing it. --Pcj (T•C) 01:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You know you don't have to reblock me every day. I am not going to be editing these pages for awhile. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Rolandius, I am sorry it is coming to this - but the situation you have placed us in, knowingly or unknowingly, is a problem. You aren't a "vandal" per se, but you are making some people's lives very difficult. If you have a problem with an admin - contact them, and possibly one other if they cannot help you. Do not email every admin hoping for a different answer. This pisses us off, and can get us annoyed at each other. We don't like that.

Admins make decisions for the good of the wiki - you have to live with them. I have never in the life of this wiki seen anyone manage to stir up so much trouble in such a short period of time. Kirkburn talk contr 02:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't e-mailed every admin. I have talked to 1 or 2 admins. A lot of things are getting exagerrated over here. 1 or 2 admins is not "every" admin. Also, my e-mail is blocked on here so I couldn't really e-mail "every" admin even if I wanted to. If people have to exagerrate reasons to block me then I probably should not be blocked in the first place. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I see more was stuff was added to my violation list about Elwynn Forest. The sources do not give us information on Westridge's population. In fact, they don't even list it under Sites and Settlements in the Elwynn Forest section. It belongs under the "maps and subregions" section of the page not "minor settlements", unless some method has changed, seeing the examples of other pages. Also, there is high chance that Westridge is supposed to be in fact Westbrook Garrison. If you look at the LoC map, there is a Westridge G. on the map where Westbrook Garrison is currently. A change may have occured where Westridge G. on the map became Westbrook G. They did not edit the Westridge out of the source in time or in error, in which it was mentioned only twice anyways. This has occured before in lore with Westfall's various names for instance. This may have been the Westridge they meant in LoC since they mention Westridge having a good place to drink. Under the Elwynn Forest section, they mention Westbrook Garrison under Sites and Settlements, with a population, and the people having a great time drinking ale. Westridge=Westridge G.=Westbrook G. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "my e-mail is blocked on here so I couldn't really e-mail "every" admin even if I wanted to" ... look, we aren't stupid. That setting has not always been on, and I kept getting reports of you emailing people, and I'm not inclinded to disbelieve them because you say "I have talked to 1 or 2 admins". Indeed, Baggins turned it on you would stop pestering him, I have received emails from you, so has Fandyllic. That's more than two already. It stops now.

The infoboxes use RPG info. This does not mean they exclusively use RPG info. I cannot imagine how many times Baggins has tried to put this across. Edit warring with him over isn't going to help. Kirkburn talk contr 02:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the truth. I have no idea what you heard but you should demand proof. I am talking about these past 2 weeks. This instance of banning and not in the last year. I have only e-mailed 1 or 2 admins. I am not talking about the last time I was banned or anything. I haven't emailed you in at least 1-2 months. Last time I e-mailed Baggins was 1-2 weeks ago during the week before I was even on WoWWiki yet from my last ban. We were talking about Warcraft II maps back then so I don't know where you got the "bothering Baggins" part from that or "turned on block e-mail due to lots of e-mail". Lots of exagerration from people it looks like. Instead of banning me and telling my cryptic replies, why doesn't someone just say "The infoboxes use RPG info. This does not mean they exclusively use RPG info." Instead I get that the infoboxes are based on the RPG. Then it changes to no it is not based on the RPG. Now it is based on the RPG but not exclusively. Of course that still does not explain how a settlement like Westridge that has no info on population or even on Westridge itself really gets turned into a minor settlement. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I found my last e-mails to Baggins and yourself. Last time I e-mailed Baggins I believe was Sept. 24 and was a couple of days before I was even back from my last ban. So that would be 2 weeks ago. The last e-mail I sent you I believe was Aug. 25 and so that would be 7 weeks ago almost. I don't know how that is called "bothering" people with "lots of e-mails" or what that has to do with blocking my e-mail on here. I did not e-mail Baggins for almost 2 weeks before my e-mail on here was blocked so why would I e-mail him all of a sudden now? Also, I haven't e-mailed you in 7 weeks so why would I have to have my e-mail blocked if I am not even bothering anyone? I have only talked to 2 admins lately. Sky was my Mentor and we are supposed to be e-mailing each other about my Mentor page. So like I said I have talked to 1-2 admins recently and I have proof which it looks like my detractors do not. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am a Suspect on the violation list yet I am still blocked. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 01:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

If anyone wants to hear my side of the story or ask me questions I am here and with proof. I was led to believe that this Mentor page was something where Sky checks to see if my ideas were relevant or not. If they were relevant he said ok. If they weren't relevant he said nope. Suddenly it turned into a place for some people to argue with me and not help with something positive. If people would have watched the Mentor page and stopped it then this would never have happened. I don't know if anyone noticed but I was barely back from my last ban for about a week when I got banned again. Sort of quick don't you think? Also, Kirkburn you said "If you have a problem with an admin - contact them" which then turns into "Baggins turned it on you would stop pestering him" as if I have e-mailed every day for the past 2 weeks. Which one is it? If I am told to contact an admin and it is going to be used against me then why tell me to contact the admin in the first place? Regardless, if you read my post above I have stated when I last e-mailed Baggins and yourself in order for you to see that I was not recently bothering anyone and therefore no reasoning for him to block my e-mail on here. I am sure people on WoWWiki have e-mailed more than 2 admins if your counting the past 6 months. The core of the problem is that some people do not like anyone for any reason touching their edits no matter if they are correct or not. I touched some edits and then I was banned. A rule should be made that admins' edits may not be touched no matter if wrong or right so that someone else does not get banned in the future like I have been many times. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 02:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Far Seer Corhuk?

I think Farseer Corhuk is the correct name of this NPC. The name of the page should be the name of the NPC in the game. Some NPCs are named Far Seer while others are named Farseer. I am not sure if Farseers are the same as Far Seers in lore but the page should reflect the NPC's name which in this case is Farseer Corhuk. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable Farseers

Here are some notable Farseers someone could add to the article. Farseer Corhuk, Farseer Kurkush, and Farseer Margadesh. Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Calender

I think there should be a page made that has something to do with calenders/measure of time. I see some people wondering about dates on WoWWiki_talk:Warcraft_pump. As for calenders, we could put information about the calender used around the time of the First War, the calender used now, and the mysterious BTFT and ATFT dates used in Horatio Montgomery, M.D.'s memorial. We could also throw in the use of "Selune - Spring" in the Journal of Brann. I am not sure if the festivals that some people celebrate for the different seasons and times of the year would count as holidays or this page. Finally, we could put in the fact that dwarves did not always use the 24 hour clock once upon a time. They used a 30 hour day. Also, Ironforge does not run on a schedule like many cities due to it being underground, hence no sun. It is quite dark in Ironforge actually as they keep the lights dim. Ironforge runs, starting at midnight, on three 8 hour-shifts marked by a loud whistle. In the game, I believe they just use that hourly horn. A few exceptions to the shift schedule exist though like police. Although Ironforge runs all night and day, the work output is about the same as the other cities that use the schedule in which they are busy during the day and closed at night. As you can see the Alliance uses the sun as the mark between night and day. The Orcs use cycles to measure their years. They plan many things according to the cycle, from the timing of the naming of their children to measuring the time between a new moon and full moon. Alternatively, the information could just be added to any appropiate pages if possible. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Template:Races

I think the Mag'har are a seperate "race" and not just a faction akin to how high elves are a different "race" from blood elves or night elves. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Skywing

Skywing is technically a Parrot (Beast) and not an Arakkoa (Humanoid). Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

WW:MOS

According to policy, some pages like General achievements should not have links in the bold of the article's lead sentence. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

In addition, some pages like Plunder Isle should have the title of the article put in bold the first time it is mentioned. Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back.

Upon review, the admins have decided to remove your ban and return you to the previous arrangement, with the following additional stipulations:

Sky2042 will be your only admin source of contact; the other admins will work with Sky if any problems arise or if Sky requests their help. All admins should be aware of this - if you encounter any problems, talk to Sky about it. This does not mean admins - or others - cannot edit your contributions appropriately; simply that no action should be taken against you without consulting Sky.
You will not create a new article under any circumstances, unless its format has already been approved by Sky.
You will discuss all major page edits with Sky.
You will not initiate blanket reformatting across several articles without discussion.
Any questions you ask on your mentor page will be given a plain answer.
These arrangements will be subject to review at the end of November, or at any time if we see them to not be working quite as intended.

Please contact Sky with any questions. Thank you for your patience. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!•C207,729 contributions and counting) 04:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

One small note. When I try to edit any kind of page like my userpage it says

Start of block: 21:26, 13 October 2008

Expiry of block: 21:26, 14 October 2008

and something about my IP address has been recently used by Rolandius which is myself. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, should be fixed. --Pcj (T•C) 04:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Pcj. Rolandius

(talk - contr) 04:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

^ Template:Cite web

[1] Template:Cite web

[1]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 {{archive|User talk:Rolandius}}
-==Sorry to have to do this...==
-I've warned you previously about moving pages without permission, and instigating edit wars. Citations have been given where At'ai and Hakkari are called tribes in game. While there may be a disagreement in interpreation the terminology between interpretations of various sources the terminology is certainly official ingame... If you want to ignore it and move the page without permission, then you will have to enjoy another vacation...[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 07:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Ya I think you should be banned for not giving a good reason. I am not the only one that agrees that one or both those are not tribes. Look again. I am not the one starting edit wars. Also, tell me how moving the Atal'ai page was wrong when only one NPC mentions the word tribe and my Dark Iron empire was deleted because, guess what, only one NPC mentioned it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 07:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Also since I cannot comment on talk pages, Dark Factions came out after Land of Conflict. Ingame all the member's tags say Explorers' League.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 07:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Hey Baggins wake up. I cannot comment on talk pages when I am banned. First off, ok it is 2 NPCs not just one, but don't you need more than one or two NPCs saying it? As I just told you with the Dark Iron empire, I had evidence of an NPC saying it and their leader is an emperor but you still deleted that entry. Also, you coming up with citations after you have banned me already makes no sense at all. And saying I will take a short vacation if I keep things up, then 30 seconds later banning me when I could not have done anything in 30 seconds, makes no sense at all. Finally, there are a dozen NPCs in the game with the tag Explorers' League yet you keep ignoring that fact.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 09:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Here is a typical example of Baggins not listening. The Twilight's Hammer is a cult yet it is listed as a clan on wowwiki because there was a Twilight's Clan a long time ago which was nearly destroyed. "The Twilight’s Hammer cult takes its motivation from the Twilight’s Hammer clan. After the clan was mostly destroyed, the cult sprang up, perhaps with encouragement from a few surviving members of theclan. However, the cult is not comprised primarily, or even mostly, of clan members."{{Cite|DF|84}}    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 10:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Another example. There is a quest called Army of the Black Dragon. Also on worldofwarcraft.com there is a picture with the caption Army of the Black Dragon. Baggins deleted my entry from wowwiki of Army of the Black Dragon saying the army is just called Black Dragonflight.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 10:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Third example. Baggins continues to say I am making up fan fiction or speculation whenever I say something that he disagrees with. He acts like I just changed something tremendous whenever I edit something he doesn't like. It is not like I am going around editing pages to say Humans can fly with thier arms or pigs are related to horses. Anyways, he will not explain why he called my statement, that the Well of Eternity changed the night elves' skin and stature, speculation when it is stated right on the official page that this did in fact occur. Whenever I give him sources for a page I create, that I find in the the game or official webpage, he counters with the comment that the RPG is a newer source so I am overruled. When I tell him about some RPG or official webpage source for a page I create, he counters with the comment that I am not reading it right or because of a game source and I am overruled. Also might I add that half of his comments to me on my talk page are badly misspelled.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 10:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-You know what's frustrating me? Both of you. Rolandius, my advice to you is, please wait for talk page discussions to actually finish and come to a consensus before making major changes to articles - especially if it has previously been reverted. Anything controversial needs discussion first. We have {{t|move}} specifically for the purpose of discussing page moves. Baggins, stop getting so passionately involved. Talk pages are for discussion, and you both have to stop attacking each other on them. This is not a game of one-upmanship, it is a wiki. Everyone can be wrong, sometimes (though it is not a crime to accuse someone of being wrong, stop shouting it at each other, it doesn't help).
-I deleted Dark Iron Empire because at the time, it seemed an attempt to prove a point, rather than a proper article. As far as I know, that is still the case, unless you have links. The Twilight's Hammer clan is indeed said to be the same as the cult - though the article could possibly do with showing the "split" better. "Army of the Black Dragon" does not sound enough to be citable - it's just a fancy description. Regarding the ban, I'm not going to do anything yet, because I want to see that you two have read this.
-As a final note, if something is worth doing, it's worth taking time over. You don't need to rush stuff on a wiki. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 14:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Ok I have read everything, since I have just logged on, and commented below. Regarding the ban, what is the verdict? Baggins mentioned something, but I am not sure what your answer is.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 02:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Please don't exaggerate... I do not claim all your additions are fanfic, or speculation, especialy if you correctly cite the information begin with, and your interpretation was valid. The only times I've accused something you said as pure fanfic was for things like "Bloodaxe clan" which you gave no citation for, or material you later admitted was an interpretation or speculation on your part.
-:...and try to check who edited or moved your edits before you put all the blame on me. Several of the things you have accused me of editing were changes by Ragestorm, Kirkburn and other admins, or users that noticed your mistakes. I've tried to explain this before if someone add material that isn't cited, a fact check is the normal policy put into place for such material. That should not be equated to calling someone's additions "fanfic" or "speculation" it just means that it needs to have a specific citation so others can look up the information for themselves.
-:Secondly, you were wrong about Atal'ai tribe only being referenced one time in the game, actually its used almost every time the term Atal'ai is used in a quest. Infact one quest goes as far to talk about the ancient Atal'ai civilization. Some of these quests were actually updated long after Dark Factions was actually written. I don't know anything about your so called Dark Iron empire and tried to search for "Dark Iron empire" specifically after you accused me of deleting it, but couldn't find any such comment. In any case an empire is completely different subject than a "tribe". However, let's bring up your so called "Bloodaxe clan" you never once gave any citation that such an entity existed, no direct quotes, no citations, nothing. As far as we can tell you pulled that term right out of your head.
-:I've thought about it and decided to give you some mercy. I've reduced your sentence to four days... But your violations will still be listed on the [[Violations]] page for future reference by other admins, and will taken into account for future violations.
-:However, please try to be less aggressive, please try not to twist the admins words, and listen to the warnigns by the admins more often (don't just listen, acknowledge and follow them, they are not suggestions)... Remember some of your actions are mirroring other posters that we have had to get onto before. We are not attacking you as a person, we are just following procedures for policies, that you may have broken. Some who have broken similar policies have listened and improved (and acknowledge they are listening rather than arguing the point in circles), see [[User talk:Zakolj]] for a good example (and anything we have told him applies to you as well). Especially look at some of the things, that he's broken and you have, but I haven't gotten on you for yet, for example your [[Acid Bullet]] addition is the exact thing we got onto Zakolj for...
-:...or there are those that never listen and keep on repeating the same mistakes, even after being warned several times, those end up getting bans, you know of some already, M1330/Kesmana as examples. If you can't show that you are willing to get along, or admit when you are wrong, then it can lead to worse actions. But if you try to be more compliant with the rules and admins (if you have been issued a warning, follow the warning, don't repeat the offence) then you will be less likely to get into trouble.
-:Usually "recent source" is not used as the end all benchmark for a source of information. Because its unclear if a source is really "recent source" for example was the book written before another source, but published after? or vice versa. A good example is Dark Factions, it was actually written long before the Naxxrammas patch, and before or during the writing of several other sources including the RPG books (MG, APG and HPG come to mind), but delayed and released much later. Those books were being written about the same time as Horde Player's guide, some material from those books were written after Dark Factions, each book was delayed at varying times of the publication schedule, and Dark Factions was delayed the most. Some sources are written at the same time but published at varying different times. Even recent sources may conflict with other recent sources or even with itself.
-:Generally speaking our ultimate rule is to list all known information and variant interpretations, if one conflicts with another we don't pick or choose the sources, and treat both equally to try to keep opinions of source credibility out of articles, for [[NPOV]] purposes. However, sometimes an editorial comment is needed, and explanation at the end of the articles to explain the possible contradictions or alternative interpretations. Its not easy, but if we didn't have this policy people would be removing/replacing information willy nilly because they had an alternative interpretation.
-:Beyond that each topic is looked at on a case by case point.
-:Final note, we don't usually get onto people for "spelling errors", because spelling can be caused by a number of factors (typing too fast, keyboard issues, etc), and most of the time they are typographical errors. I've found that  most people who accuse others of spelling errors make the same typographical mistakes. I could be anal and point them out to those people, but that would be bad of me... So let's avoid the pot calling the kettle black.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 23:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-::You have said many times that I am just making up things that I write, and you keep injecting the "strawman theory" into it. Half of the things you say I have made up were in the end, in fact, real, and the other half were me being too quick to make a page with only circumstantial evidence. I have not just made up things in my head though, I actually thought these were possible pages that could be made by things I read in sources. I did not, for example, pick a random page and delete the whole contents or change something huge in a page stating for example that humans can fly in the air. I think that would be called vandalism from a user than what I have done.
-::So firstly, yes the "Bloodaxe clan" was not a great entry I think since it might be just an organization and not a clan also. I thought I had seen some clans on wowwiki in which there were only one or two NPCs in the game alive, so I thought I would copy that example. I guess it was just a family name and organization name though. Also, I thought it was you that had deleted the "Dark Iron empire" entry because you are the one that keeps banning me and reverting 75% of my entries — so that was not you that deleted the entry.
-::Secondly, with the "Atal'ai" situation I was going by the evidence I had read. I read in Dark Factions and Troll Compendium that they were a faction. I was not the only one with that view if you look at the talk pages. I actually was trying to follow things you had told me in the past about Dark Factions being pretty current versus other sources. You told me about the Coins of the Tribes quest, but there is no coin for the "Atal'ai" —  although yes there is one for the "Hakkari". All you told me was that one NPC mentioned the "Atal'ai" as a tribe. Since my "Dark Iron empire" was deleted, although not by you, for only having one NPC mentioning "empire", I thought the same should apply to the one NPC in your example mentioning "tribe". After you banned me, then you told me that there were around 4 quests and 2 NPCs that mentioned the "Atal'ai" as a tribe or a great civilization, but I was already banned before I even saw that evidence.
-::Thirdly, I am not sure what is the matter with Acid Bullet? I found that in Dark Factions. Did I mess up the word? I thought I copied it just like Dark Factions mentioned it. I am not sure what you are talking about with M1330/Kesmana except that he was banned for something to do with either socks in the internet (you know socks as in IP addresses or internet stuff) or a sock puppet.
-::Fourth point, I am pretty sure I heard from you that Dark Factions is the most recent source out there. I remember when we were talking about Azshara really being a coast of Ashenvale. You mentioned that in an RPG, which I think was Dark Factions, that it was right and I was wrong. I tried to tell you that in the game they are two different zones. I am only trying to copy what you tell me, but I still somehow I get it wrong. You told me the game was released before some of these RPG sources so my evidence was overruled, and that Blizzard does not have time to fix everything in the game to stay current with the RPGs. So I said, ok then Azshara is really a coast I will go with you on that. Now your telling me the opposite. Your telling me Dark Factions was written before some of these RPG books and parts of WoW, and that once again I am overruled. Also I checked the RPG timeline on wowwiki, since I am actually trying to be helpful and correct in these things, and it has Dark Factions, more or less, as more recent than APG, HPG, MG, and every other RPG book.
-::Lastly, two of my entries: the "Explorers' Guild" and "Bloodwarders". I thought "Exploreres' League" would be the most proper name, as is it is written in Dark Factions in that fashion — it is the heading in the Table of Contents. Brann is the one that keeps saying "Explorers' Guild" according to his point of view, but in the actual article it says "Explorers' League" and then underneath in smaller words it says aka "Explorers' Guild". Then later you told me it also is spelled as "Explorer's League", which I thought you were misspelling because I did not see it in Dark Factions, and you told me later what RPG it was spelled like that in, but got mad at me. I still told you though, the title of the actual page should still be "Explorers' League", and then you can write aka all the other titles afterwards, because in Dark Factions that is how it is written, and in the game the NPCs tags all say "Explorers' League". With the "Bloodwarders" all I said was that they were a blood elf organization. You said no because one or two other groups have "Bloodwarders" in their group — which are by the way blood elf groups too. I see many examples though of two or more groups sometimes sharing one unit with another. For example, there are two groups: one called the "Bloodaxe Legion" and the other the "Scarshield Legion" who reside in the Blackrock Spire area. One unit is called the "Bloodaxe Worg", yet both the "Bloodaxe Legion" and "Scarshield Legion" have that unit in their teams. According to you that cannot be possible, yet it happens. Tying in with my example of the "Bloodwarders", you would say that there is no such thing as a "Bloodaxe" group because the word Bloodaxe is used in two different groups, yet that does happen as seen in this example of the "Bloodxaxe Worg" being in two different groups. Yet there is still a "Bloodaxe Legion" that exists even if it shares units between another group. I am not sure if this is because of their close relationships or what, but it occurs. Saying the "Bloodwarders" may not be a group, even though there are 16 NPCs with that name, and is only maybe a class, is not entirely correct.
-::So there is my reply. I am trying to follow the rules, although I mess up sometimes, but the rules seem to always change on me. One day a source is more important that another. Then I use that same source for my page and it is now not that important. Also, maybe the Move Page button and stuff should be disabled for non admins since sometimes when it is used, correctly by some users, bans occur.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 02:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Ok, I'm trying to be clear here, but I'm not giving any promises (i'm not sure we speak the same linguistical dialect). Not everything fits into perfect molds. For many things we take tings on a case by case situation. Some materiallike [[Juggernaught]], or [[Conjurer]] we go by the first term ever mentioned in lore, even though there are equally valid alternative spellings that mean the exact same thing. Tinker and a tinkerer mean the same thing for example. Point of note "also known as" always has and will alway smean equivlant to, or equal to. Ingame while yes Explorer's League is more common, Explorer's Guild came first, and Explorer's Guild is referenced in WoW  on rare occasions. Both have equivalent and equal meaning, and both have equally been used as page titles for major articles. In this case the first source clause has been kicked in (this is why its been listed under Explorer's Guild, even though you can also find Explorer's League ingame for who knows how long). The Explorer's Guild , and simply "the Guild" has also been used as the official titles for certain members of the Guild as well. The trick here is we consider all the terms equal, and that's what the definition of "also known as" means as well.
-:Sometimes a term might have multiple meanings, for example [[Eversong Forest]] has a valid definition (different from Eversong Woods) and the aritcle discuses both. I was trying to explain to you that such book that mentioned Ashenvale coast line was referring to an extended definition that goes beyond the in game zone, to a meaning forest that covers all eastern flank of Mount Hyjal including the Azshara zone area, and it was cited quotation. The importance here is try to avoid removing citations or quoted info. If at all possible list both quoatations. IF something confuses you ask in the talk page, we'll try to answer there. But make sure the questions are only for editorial purposes. Please don't think that because something worked one way in one place thatit will necessarily work well in another place.
-:Arcane bullet, the problem was not how you presented the content (although you capitalized the term although its not capitalized in the original article). The problem was a combination of relevence, and a copyright issue. Remember how e have warned you about adding articles that only one sentence in nature if at all possible. Try to limit it to stuff with proper nounds, and can be given a three to four sentence paragraph or more info. Try to read [[User_talk:Zakolj]] for more details relating to this topic. You'll notice I did give him permision to add more short content if he asked first, and there was related artwork, or if the material could be combined under another related article. Try to keep that in mind, please ask first.
-:As mentioned before please try to be careful against capitalizing things that are not considered proper nouns. An article might be capitalized but that doesn't mean the subject of the article is capitalized. Make sure you read the original articles closely to see if the term was capitalized throughout the entire article before you capitalize the article yourself.
-:As for moving articles, please leave that up to admins after consensus has been determined in a discussion or if they deem the move valid. Related to this try not to be an armchair admin or bookkeeper. That is not your job.
-:As for latest sources, its factored in to some degree, but it isn't the only benchmark, nor the main benchmark. Its also not 100% straight forward or reliable since one source may be the latest published source, but not necessarily the latest written/updated source. Generally speaking we treat all sources as equal as possible. Sometimes conflicts exist, all the info must be incorporated into the article somehow. but how that is done is done on a case by case basis.
-:Sometimes if the info is a small difference, an editorial note is added. Someties the notes are put at the end of an article in a speculation section. The larger the note the more likely it will be put at the end of the article. If inuniverse notation describes two beliefs as seperate beliefs by individual or named characters, then both may be listed as "believed by". Please look at [[History of the Horde]] for examples of editorial notes, end section notes, and a few "believed by" type notices. Sometimes if the info is chronological to begin with, then both accounts will be mentioned with equal standing with the chornolgoical details mentioned, where they were chronologically said to have taken place in the timeline.
-:Also quite accusing me of saying "you make everyting up" I've only accused you of making up the "Bloodaxe clan"" (although I didn't technically accuse you, I just asked for the citation, you later claimed to have "made it up"), and even suggested you should have named the article Bloodaxe Legion. I have asked you where a source of information came from this doesn't mean I was accusing you of making the info up. Also adding fact template doesn't equate to accusing you of "making stuff up", it jsut means please add the actual citation.
-:I know I might not have covered your whole post but I hope I covered most of it.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-::I think we do speak the same dialect but I am not sure sometimes. Ya I do get what your saying except now I just read this today on the [[canon]] page. It says the game has a bit more weight versus other sources? "According to one example Metzen states the games themselves are considered the benchmarks for information, with the MMO setting the standard." I am not sure if the website is included in that or not, but it does give us something to look at — unless that page or quote is wrong. I am just reading it today.
-::I didn't make a page on Arcane bullet I made one called Acid bullet, but I think your talking about that one right? Yes it was short but I thought it was a good entry since it was from Dark Factions.
-::On sources yes I know now that publishing and written dates can be different but it is hard for the average user to know those different things. Also on the RPG timeline it looks like Dark Factions is the latest at least in the timeline.
-::Okay I think I got everything you said. I also wrote about the stuff I just found out recently.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 05:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Yes, I added that paraphrase of Metzen's comment today, since it relates to that topic (mind you in his original quote he used novels as an example, but didnt' go into any other examples, or specific details). Don't confuse the comment as wowwiki policy comment, it isn't.
-:Our policy is still that everything is to be treated basically equal. Metzen's comment wouldn't even be able to be enforced. Think of it this way, if everything is considered canon, but some sections of sources are considered less than canon. There is no way that we could know what sections were considered less than canon. We have to treat all things basically equal, because we don't now what Blizzard knows behind the scenes. Fan opinions of what is and isn't canon is not reliable, nor is it neutral point of view. Such discussion usually devolve into violent arguements. This is why in the past I've had to tell people to leave out discussions of canon. This is also why our writing lore policy is the way it is.
-:The timeline stuff is just going by publishing date, not necessarily written date. To be fair we don't always know what the written dates are, its an interesting bit of trivia that we even know about the background behind Dark Factions publishing history.
-:Yes, I meant acid bullet, sorry for the confusion. While yes I can agree with you that it might be interesting to some people, its rather too short to be relevent in other articles. You can't really link it to anything else. It doesn't even connect with MMO ammo, as far as I know. So its a bit too random. If there was a generic article on warcraft ammo it might make for a datapoint inside that article but not as a stand alone article. You can read more criteria on Zacolj's talk page.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 07:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Ah that is why I read the canon page recently, I saw it on recent activity and read it.
-::Yes on the timeline I thought it was meant as a timeline in lore too. For example it says, "Shadows & Light covers material from War of the Ancients up to just after the The Frozen Throne" and "Alliance Player's Guide appears to take place during World of Warcraft, has material that leads into The Burning Crusade. Varian Wrynn has not yet escaped imprisonment on Alcaz Island". I thought that meant as each book came out on that list it had better sources or something. As in the later the book came out the better the source was? I guess it was not like that but I was starting to follow it like that.
-::On the Acid bullet entry, I thought some people were just interested in RPG type of information, so I put that in wowwiki since it was not in yet.
-::I seem to learn something new every day.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 10:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-Oh, that timeline actually that's just when the books take place chronologically,it has nothing to do with with when it was written or when it was published. Its just there for people to understand roughly when the events mentioned in the book take place, compared to other timelines. There is some overlap between APG, HPG, and DF as far as the progression of major events, but some events have progressed between the books.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 12:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Okay I see now.
-:By the way, not to go back to the old subject really, but I was looking at those coins for that quest you told me about. Although Atal'ai is not included, it does mention Hakkari. It says that the "Coins of the Tribe" are also called "Paragons of Power". The thing is that the "Coins of the Tribe" actually are not just coins it says — they include Zul'Gurub Coins, Hakkari Bijoux, and Primal Hakkari to my knowledge. Now they say "Tribe" and not "Tribes" so I am not sure if they mean "Tribe" as in the whole of Zul'Gurub back when it was the Gurubashi tribe or not. Now if you look at the coin sets, there are 3 different sets. 2 of the sets have coins that are already established tribe names. The third set has Hakkari, Zulian, and Razzashi Coins. The thing is that all the Zulian and Razzashi NPCs are beasts in the game. I don't think there was ever a Zulian or Razzashi tribe. Half of the Hakkari NPCs in the game are beasts, but half are also Trolls. It just seems like they are saying that not all those coins are just connected to Troll tribes. Putting Hakkari with the set of Zulian and Razzashi doesn't sound too good for evidence of a Hakkari tribe. I mean why didn't they include an Atal'ai coin? And why didn't they call it "Coins of the Tribes"? I just wanted to tell you that so we could add it to our known information in deciding if the Hakkari and/or the Atal'ai are tribes. You might find something I missed.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 13:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
-It's as actually "Coins of the Tribes" according to the WoW data collecting websites[http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=8195]. If it its called  coins of the Tribe" in wowwiki its probably a typo. I'm pretty sure you are mixed up, the coins, bijous and primal hakkari are part of the paragons of power. the bijous and primal hakkari aren't the coins of the tribes.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 03:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Okay I guess I saw a misspelled word, it is really "tribes". Still, it says right on the page [[Paragons of Power]] that "Paragons of Power, also called "Coins of the Tribes", consist of Zul'Gurub Coins, Hakkari Bijoux and Primal Hakkari items that can be obtained in Zul'Gurub." If you look at the page [[Zul'Gurub coins]] it says "A lesser paragons of power from fallen troll empires". Also you forgot about the whole Zulian and Razzashi not even being tribes.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 03:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
-==Meanwhile...==
-So much to edit, yet I cannot.
-) Could someone check out the [[Sandfury troll]] page? This is what it says: "According to the Troll Compendium, they are the descendants of the jungle trolls. However, the later published Monster Guide states that they originated from the main troll races, which descended from the Zandalar trolls." Those sentences are pretty much the same. The jungle trolls are one of the main troll races which descended from the Zandalar trolls. It looks like just keeping the first quote is good enough.
-) Cool job, Coobra, on the WCIII GIF page. Hope more get added.
-) On the [[Trogg]] page under trivia it says that Trogg is a reference to the word troglodyte, or caveman. Wouldn't the [[Troglodyte]] of the RPG be more of a reference to the word troglodyte? Also, wouldn't either of them be more of a reference to Dungeon and Dragons, and not just cavemen.
-) On the [[Manticora]] page under trivia it says that Manticora is a reference to the manticore. Wouldn't the [[Manticore]] of the RPG be a more of a reference to the manticore?
-) Why is the word orcish, which is a language, used a lot in the sentence "The orcish Horde..."? Isn't that like saying the common Humans or the the dwarven Dwarves?
-) In the page [[Quest:Hameya's Plea]], it says that the [[Lich King|lich]] who caused Hameya's change is the Lich King. On the [[Mossflayer tribe]] page it just says a [[lich]] caused the problems.
-) The pages [[Frost Giant]] and [[Molten Giant]] say that they are both [[Mountain Giant]]s. I checked the citations and I am pretty sure it never mentions them being Mountain giants. I think that like the elements — fire, earth, water (frost), and wind — that they are seperate from each other. I mean is the page on [[Storm Giant]] next going to say that it is a Mountain Giant too?
-) Does the [[Stormpike Emissary]] and [[Scarlet Crusade]] really share the same emblem?http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Scarlet_Crusade_Tabard.jpg
-They both are red.
-) Proto-dragons might be the precursor of all the other dragon flights because: "White is the combination of all the colors of the visible light spectrum."http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/light/u12l2a.html#white
-I am not sure why some dragons say they were born at the "dawn of time" though. How come on the page [[Dragonflight]] it says that the dragonflights are "Sub-races of Dragons"?
-) It says on the [[Drakkari tribe]] page that "Unlike some other troll tribes, a group of ice trolls still retains a portion of its kingdom: The Drakkari live in Zul’Drak in Northrend." Doesn't that mean that they should be included in Troll Empires on the [[Template:Trolls]]? It wasn't as big as the Twin Empires, but they should get credit for having a sizeable empire at all.
-Over and out.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 12:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
-I'm too bsuy so I can't go through all these right now, but here is a few comments
-. a kingdom and a tribe aren't the same thing.
-. If you cojmbined all the colors together you'll get brown dark colors, if you combine pigments. Pigements aren't the same as "light". That kind of speculation should probably be avoided.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 03:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
-:That is ok you can read them anytime. Okay here is my reply.
-:10. Why does it say then that the Drakkari still retain a portion of their kingdom? Take it out of the page then if that is not really the case. I think it is the case since the Drakkari still have other tribes under their rule.
-:9. Okay so then is it fair to say that the Black Dragonflight might be the precursor to all the other Dragonflights? If you combine all colors you get a shade of black color.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 03:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
-::5) "orcish" is being used as an adjective, it isn't referring to the language at all. The Alliance was sometimes referred to the "human Alliance."
-::9) That's too far into speculation we don't really need. Though most of the colors have symbolic significance, there's no evidence to suggest that one begets the other. By that logic, surely a White Dragonflight would be the precursor with the Blacks being what happened when the descendent colors breeded with each other. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::5) Oh okay so orcish is like saying human? I thought it would be something like the orc horde and not the orcish horde.
-:::9) Well I am trying to figure out why the dragons said they were around at the dawn of time when there are proto-dragons around now we have found out.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 02:29, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 == "Grammar edits" ==
@@ Line 162: / Line 6: @@
 I really don't understand why you keep on changing hyphens and call them "grammar edits", that's not it at all. Furthermore you keep on changing quotes from the RPG books, and while I would like it grammatically correct you'll just have to keep it that way. Also, categorizing something like <code><nowiki>[[Category:Titans| ]]</nowiki></code> will make it stay at the very first of the category, while categorizing [[Titan]] with <code><nowiki>[[Category:Titans]]</nowiki></code> puts it under "T" in the category. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 09:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
-:I am not changing hyphens, I am correcting em dashes. Ragestorm has said before that no matter what the source, it should be grammatically correct. The changing of <code><nowiki>[[Category:Titans| ]]</nowiki></code> to <code><nowiki>[[Category:Titans]]</nowiki></code> was me thinking someone accidently put an extra symbol. I didn't know that the symbol "|" was actually something that was supposed to be in a category entry.LOL Now I know.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 09:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
+:I am not changing hyphens, I am correcting em dashes. Ragestorm has said before that no matter what the source, it should be grammatically correct. The changing of <code><nowiki>[[Category:Titans| ]]</nowiki></code> to <code><nowiki>[[Category:Titans]]</nowiki></code> was me thinking someone accidently put an extra symbol. I didn't know that the symbol "|" was actually something that was supposed to be in a category entry.LOL Now I know.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 09:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::When did I say that? If it's an EXACT quote from a source it should be left alone, no matter how bad it is.--[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::I know that Ragestorm. I didn't change any EXACT quotes, that I know of, except by fixing the spacing. For example instead of "... hi" I would change it to "...hi". I thought they wrote an extra space. I don't call that "changing quotes". As for the other so called "quotes", there is nothing saying they are even quotes to give me a clue. I thought it was someone writing a sentence badly. How am I supposed to know it is an EXACT quote when there are no quote symbols around the sentence or citations or anything? If you don't do that then your actually copying the source verbatim and breaking the rules — at least that is what I heard.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::I know that Ragestorm. I didn't change any EXACT quotes, that I know of, except by fixing the spacing. For example instead of "... hi" I would change it to "...hi". I thought they wrote an extra space. I don't call that "changing quotes". As for the other so called "quotes", there is nothing saying they are even quotes to give me a clue. I thought it was someone writing a sentence badly. How am I supposed to know it is an EXACT quote when there are no quote symbols around the sentence or citations or anything? If you don't do that then your actually copying the source verbatim and breaking the rules — at least that is what I heard.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Yes, that's fine, but I never told you "that no matter what the source, it should be grammatically correct."  I think was g0urra was trying to say is that "grammar edits" gives the impression that you're doing something more serious ant noticeable than changing the length of a dash.-_[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Okay I think I got confused. This is what you said, "We're not talking about source material Baggins, we're talking about the English Language. Unless it's an exact quote, what the RPG uses doesn't matter in the least." I thought you were talking about em dashes or something when you told Baggins this.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Okay I think I got confused. This is what you said, "We're not talking about source material Baggins, we're talking about the English Language. Unless it's an exact quote, what the RPG uses doesn't matter in the least." I thought you were talking about em dashes or something when you told Baggins this.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Sig ==
@@ Line 176: / Line 20: @@
 Because you're not supposed to <code>subst:</code> {{t|sig}}. Read [[WW:SIG]]. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Ah okay I guess. [[Sky]] helped change it for me last month.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 12:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Ah okay I guess. [[Sky]] helped change it for me last month.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 12:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 You're still doing it. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 13:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Yes, your still doing it Gourra.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Yes, your still doing it Gourra.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 :Wrong Gourra. It says there are two methods. That aside:
@@ Line 189: / Line 33: @@
 ::Change the box in your preference to that please. Then it should be good. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [http://www.wowhead.com/?user=Skyfire w]) 01:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::LOL Okay hope this works. I am putting what you said under "My Preferences" and then "Signature". Also, I click "Raw Signature" right?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::LOL Okay hope this works. I am putting what you said under "My Preferences" and then "Signature". Also, I click "Raw Signature" right?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Perfect. =) --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [http://www.wowhead.com/?user=Skyfire w]) 01:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Cool. Hope this is what some people wanted.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Cool. Hope this is what some people wanted.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Random WC3 hero names ==
-Please stop adding these to the relatives box of characters. Unless there is confirmed associated lore (rabid speculation on Baron Perenolde's identity doesn't count), we have no evidence that these names have any sort of significance. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
+Please stop adding these to the relatives box of characters. Unless there is confirmed associated lore (rabid speculation on Baron Perenolde's identity doesn't count), we have no evidence that these names have any sort of significance. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
-:That is why I put (possibly). Also, I already saw it on another Perenolde relative. So if Baron Perenolde is listed as someone's relative on a family member's page, why shouldn't they be listed on another family member's page?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
+:That is why I put (possibly). Also, I already saw it on another Perenolde relative. So if Baron Perenolde is listed as someone's relative on a family member's page, why shouldn't they be listed on another family member's page?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::Baron Perenolde shouldn't be listed on ANYONE's page. It's one of the random names that comes with the WC3 death knight.  Sylvos Windrunner and somethingorother Shadowsong are also there. Maybe these characters are meant to be other members of the same families, maybe even specific characters or the programmers forgot about it when inputting the random names. We don't know, and since we don't know, it doesn't go in the infobox. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::Oh okay.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::Oh okay.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 == twins ==
-Just for reference purposes, what's the citation for Nefarian and Onyxia being twins? --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 04:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
+Just for reference purposes, what's the citation for Nefarian and Onyxia being twins? --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 04:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Well I found it here in the quest [[Quest:The Great Masquerade|The Great Masuerade]]. I am not sure if that is enough evidence, but it is part of the whole Onyxia quest chain.   &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Well I found it here in the quest [[Quest:The Great Masquerade|The Great Masuerade]]. I am not sure if that is enough evidence, but it is part of the whole Onyxia quest chain.   &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::Probably not. I'll check BtDP, but I'm pretty sure it's not there either. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 04:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::What is BtDP?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::What is BtDP?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::It's Beyond the Dark Portal. [[User:Darigaaz the Igniter|Darigaaz the Igniter]] ([[User talk:Darigaaz the Igniter|talk]]) 06:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Oh okay.LOL Well I hope it has something about them being twins. Marshal Windsor is a reliable NPC.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Oh okay.LOL Well I hope it has something about them being twins. Marshal Windsor is a reliable NPC.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::::I dunno, that seems pretty clear to me.  If thy weren't twins, he'd likely have called her Nefarian's sister instead. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 08:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 223: / Line 68: @@
 == Deleting sections ==
 Please don't use {{t|Speedydelete}} for sections within articles, just remove them if you believe they don't belong, or talk about it in the page's talk page. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 20:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Oh ok. I thought they could be used for sections also.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Oh ok. I thought they could be used for sections also.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Stormwind ==
 Hi, I think that article [[Stormwind]] should be renamed to Kingdom of Stormwind. Now there is confusion because people want to see article about Stormwind (faction from the game) but the problem is, that there are three articles about Stormwind - [[Stormwind]], [[Stormwind City]] and [[Stormwind human]]. Other factions have no similar problems. We should do something with that. --[[User:Novis-M|Novis-M]] ([[User talk:Novis-M|talk]]) 15:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 :And I suggest that you do nothing of the kind. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 15:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-::I guess you are not going to be able to change it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+::I guess you are not going to be able to change it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 :::I'm trying to say, that half of the pages with the list of all factions (Silvermoon City, Orgrimmar, Ironforge, and similar main reputation factions) links to Stormwind, second half links to Stormwind City. And that's very confusing. --[[User:Novis-M|Novis-M]] ([[User talk:Novis-M|talk]]) 15:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-::::I guess you could change the other half of the links to point to Stormwind City?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+::::I guess you could change the other half of the links to point to Stormwind City?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 Question is - should the links point to Stormwind or Stormwind City? Oficial reputation faction is Stormwind, not the Stormwind City. --[[User:Novis-M|Novis-M]] ([[User talk:Novis-M|talk]]) 15:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-:LOL Okay then, I guess you could change the other half of the links to point to Stormwind?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+:LOL Okay then, I guess you could change the other half of the links to point to Stormwind?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::I don't know :) For example [[Ironforge]] is the [[faction]], everything links to that page. It is inhabited by [[Ironforge Dwarves]] and it is the capital of the [[Kingdom of Ironforge]] (nothing links to the article about the kingdom). So we gotta choose what is the faction - [[Stormwind]], or [[Stormwind City]]? We should divide whats is the faction, and what is the kingdom. OMG :D --[[User:Novis-M|Novis-M]] ([[User talk:Novis-M|talk]]) 15:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::LOL Yes I am all confused. I think it is because Ironforge and those other factions don't have big kingdoms. So it is pretty much the city. Stormwind though was not affected by the third war as much as some others, so they have a city and also a big kingdom.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::LOL Yes I am all confused. I think it is because Ironforge and those other factions don't have big kingdoms. So it is pretty much the city. Stormwind though was not affected by the third war as much as some others, so they have a city and also a big kingdom.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Yes, thats true because no other known kingdom is as famous as the Stormwind one. So maybe it would be better if the page Stormwind was renamed to Stormwind, and the page Stormwind to Kingdom of Stormwind. Because, there is no "Stormwind City" faction in the game, only Stormwind. We can only guess if it is related to the city or to the kingdom. I think to the city (Blood Elven faction is also city - Silvermoon City, same as Undeads, Taurens, Orcs, Night Elves...) --[[User:Novis-M|Novis-M]] ([[User talk:Novis-M|talk]]) 15:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Yes, but Gourra said no one should change it. I don't know then.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Yes, but Gourra said no one should change it. I don't know then.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 [[Stormwind]] is the kingdom and area, [[Stormwind City]] is the faction and city. What's complex about that? {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 16:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 254: / Line 101: @@
 :I'm afraid you're wrong - in the game, there is no faction called Stormwind City, there is only Stormwind faction. If the faction will be called Stormwind City, we can change name of Ironforge to "City of Ironforge" etc, and thats nonsense. --[[User:Novis-M|Novis-M]] ([[User talk:Novis-M|talk]]) 16:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Well I think Novis-M is trying to say that some people think [[Stormwind]] is the faction and [[Stormwind City]] is just the city. If you look at the reputation pane it does say Stormwind only.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Well I think Novis-M is trying to say that some people think [[Stormwind]] is the faction and [[Stormwind City]] is just the city. If you look at the reputation pane it does say Stormwind only.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::That's a point, yes, it does need clearing up. I suggest taking it to the talk page of the articles. Thanks! {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 16:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Okay Novis-M, talk about the changes you would like by commenting in the talk pages of whichever page you were asking about.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
+::Okay Novis-M, talk about the changes you would like by commenting in the talk pages of whichever page you were asking about.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 :::There appears to be confusion here. In the published lore, "Stormwind" is the name of the kingdom, and Stormwind City is the capital of that kingdom. The citations are given in the articles actually. There is a second definition of "Stormwind" that being a "Faction" within Stormwind.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 17:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
-::::Where have you been? I have not seen you around in awhile. I think what happened is that most of the other factions that are major powers are cities. For example, Ironforge, Orgrimmar, Exodar, Silvermoon City, and etc. are cities and a faction. With Stormwind, you have the city, the kingdom, and then the name of a faction. So Novis-M was trying to figure out if the faction Stormwind was Stormwind City like the others or Stormwind Kingdom. I am not sure myself, but I do know that Stormwind has not suffered as much in the Third War as others so I said that they have a huge area under their control still. So I thought maybe the faction Stormwind could be the whole of Stormwind since they have so much land intact that they are not just a city with small land around them.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
+::::Where have you been? I have not seen you around in awhile. I think what happened is that most of the other factions that are major powers are cities. For example, Ironforge, Orgrimmar, Exodar, Silvermoon City, and etc. are cities and a faction. With Stormwind, you have the city, the kingdom, and then the name of a faction. So Novis-M was trying to figure out if the faction Stormwind was Stormwind City like the others or Stormwind Kingdom. I am not sure myself, but I do know that Stormwind has not suffered as much in the Third War as others so I said that they have a huge area under their control still. So I thought maybe the faction Stormwind could be the whole of Stormwind since they have so much land intact that they are not just a city with small land around them.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Bolding ==
@@ Line 268: / Line 115: @@
 You should only bold the first instance of an article's name per [[WW:MOS]]; not every instance of it on the page. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [http://www.wowhead.com/?user=Skyfire w]) 07:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
-:LOL I just commented on your page.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 07:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
+:LOL I just commented on your page.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 07:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::Have you learned nothing? Only both the first instance of the name in an article, or don't bold at all, and if the first instance of the name has a title attached, bold the whole thing. It's not that difficult. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Well then just say bold the whole "name" and "title". I thought it was only supposed to be the page's name that was bold, not their whole title. Also, I haven't bolded more than the first instance of the name in an article in 2 weeks so I am not sure where you got that from.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Well then just say bold the whole "name" and "title". I thought it was only supposed to be the page's name that was bold, not their whole title. Also, I haven't bolded more than the first instance of the name in an article in 2 weeks so I am not sure where you got that from.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::[http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Golganneth&diff=1569258&oldid=1548780] Sorry about that, didn't look closely at the date. And I have told you about the name and title before, if you've been keeping track of my edit summaries. Anyway, now you have the instruction, on to the next crisis. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Yea, Kirkburn told me also that aka's should stay bold too so I started leaving those alone.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Yea, Kirkburn told me also that aka's should stay bold too so I started leaving those alone.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::::Well, on that count he and I might disagree... Anyway, just leave any bolding in the lead as is. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::Oh ya I know. Just saying in case you see me bolding the aka's and wonder why.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::::Oh ya I know. Just saying in case you see me bolding the aka's and wonder why.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Creating new articles ==
@@ Line 286: / Line 133: @@
 When you create new NPC articles, please use the [[Help:NPC articles|NPC boilerplate]]. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Well something is better than nothing. I am just adding the little information I stumble on.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Well something is better than nothing. I am just adding the little information I stumble on.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::Then ''at least'' mark it with {{t|Stub/NPC}}. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::Oh woops okay.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::Oh woops okay.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Isha Awak ==
@@ Line 294: / Line 141: @@
 It's fine to add "The quest" to "Isha Awak sends the...", but you shouldn't use the {{t|quest}} template for for same page you're linking to, thats why it was reverted. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 02:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
-:LOL I know I messed it up. I went to edit it back and it was reverted already. You could give me 5 seconds to fix it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
+:LOL I know I messed it up. I went to edit it back and it was reverted already. You could give me 5 seconds to fix it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::I'm not the one that reverted it, I'm just letting you know why it was. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 02:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::Well I don't mean you as in Coobra, I mean you as in the person who did it and reads this.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::Well I don't mean you as in Coobra, I mean you as in the person who did it and reads this.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Not a forum ==
@@ Line 302: / Line 149: @@
 [[WoWWiki:What WoWWiki is not#WoWWiki is not a forum|WoWWiki is not a forum]]. Non-editorial discussions on talk pages are frowned upon, so please don't add more of it. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 03:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
-:Okay, you go on and tell that to everyone else on the page too.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay, you go on and tell that to everyone else on the page too.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::We usually do by putting a swift adminy end to the discussion, but personal visits are made for those who are constantly starting non-editorial discussions. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 03:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::It was editorial, I wanted to know if his occupation was pilot. Unless it is a different page you are talking about.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::It was editorial, I wanted to know if his occupation was pilot. Unless it is a different page you are talking about.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Well, having reviewed some of your history, I can see that many of the discussions you've started have the appearance of you asking a question for discussion's sake or personal clarification. [[Talk:Wrath of the Lich King#Trailer]] or [[Talk:Queen_Azshara#Description_of_Azshara]] do NOT look like editorial discussions. Re Gazlowe, I can see how it might be an editorial question in theory, it also doesn't look editorial. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::::I guess our definitions of editorial are different then. I asked the trailer question for personal clarification, yes. The Azshara and Gazlowe questions I asked because of conflicting descriptions of those characters. Are you saying I cannot point out conflicting ideas about a character in the talk page? I mean come on, I have seen people talk about so and so character is ugly or so and so character would be a great wife in talk pages on here.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::::I guess our definitions of editorial are different then. I asked the trailer question for personal clarification, yes. The Azshara and Gazlowe questions I asked because of conflicting descriptions of those characters. Are you saying I cannot point out conflicting ideas about a character in the talk page? I mean come on, I have seen people talk about so and so character is ugly or so and so character would be a great wife in talk pages on here.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::::::Talk pages (apart from usertalks, the Village Pump, and the Warcraft Pump) are meant to be for discussing editorial changes to the article only. Editorial meaning formatting, reorganization discussion and the like. The actual content should only be discussed if you think something is incorrect. As for the discussions you mention, one of two possibilities arises: 1) check the dates, those discussions are likely before we began enforcing this and 2) though we enforce it, we wind up ignoring one-off non-editorials, but as I stated above, you've begun several. Personally, I usually only clip off discussions that become editorial. In future, just address personal clarification questions to the Village Pump or the Warcraft Pump.--[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::Ok for example, if I think some creatures called "Kraken" should not be called "Kraken", I have to use the Warcraft Pump and not the Talk page to mention it? Isn't that editorial?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::::::Ok for example, if I think some creatures called "Kraken" should not be called "Kraken", I have to use the Warcraft Pump and not the Talk page to mention it? Isn't that editorial?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 :No, that sounds as if it's fine for the talk page. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 01:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
-::Okay I am getting confused as to what is editorial and what is not. I thought my other questions about Azshara and Gazlowe were editorial also.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
+::Okay I am getting confused as to what is editorial and what is not. I thought my other questions about Azshara and Gazlowe were editorial also.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 == Images from WMV ==
@@ Line 328: / Line 175: @@
 ::Just don't use them in the infobox if you can avoid it. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 04:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Well I know how to change wowhead.com's jpeg images into Png images which is what I did. I have no idea about the background thing though. I put it in the infobox because there is no way we will ever get a screenshot of those people removed from the game, unless someone is holding onto a screenshot still and has not uploaded it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Well I know how to change wowhead.com's jpeg images into Png images which is what I did. I have no idea about the background thing though. I put it in the infobox because there is no way we will ever get a screenshot of those people removed from the game, unless someone is holding onto a screenshot still and has not uploaded it.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Who knows... I have tons of images stored away... most of which still have the default name... And yea, what kirkburn said. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 04:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Well isn't it better to have a model image in the infobox then to wait for a screenshot which may or may not ever get uploaded by someone who may or may not have it stored away?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Well isn't it better to have a model image in the infobox then to wait for a screenshot which may or may not ever get uploaded by someone who may or may not have it stored away?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::::Yeah, if there's no other option, fine. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-==Scanned artwork==
+== Scanned artwork ==
 If you're going to scan in artwork, to upload onto Wowwiki, please make sure to clean it up first. That is make sure that the image is only the image and doesn't include text from the book you scanned it from in the background. We really want high standards for images used in pages, especially for main article images.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 20:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Yes I know, but I am still learning how to take out unwanted parts of images.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Yes I know, but I am still learning how to take out unwanted parts of images.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Use photoshop, or just MS Paint. It's not hard. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 11:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 How come you call the peasant image I uploaded earlier a "duplicate" of your [[:Image:Peasant.png|uploaded image]], then put them ''both'' on the peasant page? The only difference between those is that the one you uploaded is facing to the left. Deleting your versions. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 11:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Two reasons. First, mine is a png image which if you read above a few posts is what Kirkburn said to try to upload it as. Two, the image of one peasant looking in one direction is from the Warcraft I Manual and the image of one peasant looking in the other direction is from the Warcraft II Manual and has the artist's signature on it. I don't know why they did it like that. I told Coobra about it on his user page, but I guess if I knew you were the one that was going to get confused I should have told you on your user page.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 11:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Two reasons. First, mine is a png image which if you read above a few posts is what Kirkburn said to try to upload it as. Two, the image of one peasant looking in one direction is from the Warcraft I Manual and the image of one peasant looking in the other direction is from the Warcraft II Manual and has the artist's signature on it. I don't know why they did it like that. I told Coobra about it on his user page, but I guess if I knew you were the one that was going to get confused I should have told you on your user page.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 11:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::He suggested that they would be PNG ''if they were supposed to be transparent''. If you don't know how to do transparent images then just stay away from image editing. At all. Second, uploading different images because '''they are facing in different directions''' doesn't make an excuse to upload more versions of the same image. Please don't be an arrogant fool. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 11:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Wow you sure make me want to contribute to wowwiki. Cool.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 11:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Wow you sure make me want to contribute to wowwiki. Cool.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 11:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 == [[WW:STUB]] ==
@@ Line 355: / Line 202: @@
 == "Trivia" ==
-Just a heads-up, if you're adding the mythological origins of something, title the section "inspiration", not trivia, unless there's other trivial information to add. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 15:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+Just a heads-up, if you're adding the mythological origins of something, title the section "inspiration", not trivia, unless there's other trivial information to add. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 15:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
-:But that is how all the other pages have it. I haven't seen inspiration sections only trivia sections when talking about lets say Elves or Orcs.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:But that is how all the other pages have it. I haven't seen inspiration sections only trivia sections when talking about lets say Elves or Orcs.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::[[Siren]], [[Eonar#Inspiration_and_Speculation]], [[Elune#Inspiration]]. If the article already has a trivia section, then the note can be put in there for the time being. Basically, trivia is interesting or fun information which most people might not know, but most people are aware of mythological connections. You should also be aware of [[Mythic_creatures_appearing_in_Warcraft]], where we've catalogued most of this already. The page itself is up for deletion because we're thinking of putting inspiration sections in all the articles, but we might wind up keeping it.--[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 16:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Okay I will start putting Inspiration sections next time. But I am sure you are aware that there are dozens of pages that just have a Trivia section and then a sentence about a movie, book, or t.v. show. Also there are dozens of pages that have a Trivia section and then a sentence about some mythological reference. I could probably fill a page with those links.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Okay I will start putting Inspiration sections next time. But I am sure you are aware that there are dozens of pages that just have a Trivia section and then a sentence about a movie, book, or t.v. show. Also there are dozens of pages that have a Trivia section and then a sentence about some mythological reference. I could probably fill a page with those links.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::We're in the process of revamping how mythological references are cited. Also, it's up to you, but I wouldn't bother with RPG specific creatures. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 16:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Well I saw the Manticore and other pages so I was inspired.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Well I saw the Manticore and other pages so I was inspired.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::Maybe "inspiration" isn't the best word... What do you think of "Myth" or "mythological basis" for creature pages and "inspiration" for characters? --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 16:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::Okay Myth then for creatures/beasts and inspiration for characters/objects.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::::Okay Myth then for creatures/beasts and inspiration for characters/objects.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 == war leader ==
-What's your citation for that? -_[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
-:For the whole page or some part of the page?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
+What's your citation for that? -_[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
+:For the whole page or some part of the page?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::In the House of Wrynn infoboxes. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 16:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Oh from the page [[War Leader]]. It says in Warcraft I that King Llane Wrynn I passed the title to you when he died. As his father King Adamant Wrynn III was the preceding leader during the war, I think King Adamant Wrynn III  passed that title to King Llane Wrynn I naturally.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Oh from the page [[War Leader]]. It says in Warcraft I that King Llane Wrynn I passed the title to you when he died. As his father King Adamant Wrynn III was the preceding leader during the war, I think King Adamant Wrynn III  passed that title to King Llane Wrynn I naturally.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::Err... was it mentioned specifically in the briefing, or are you basing this on the fact that war leader is what's listed as rank on the victory screens in the last missions? As for Adamant, Llane could have made up the title himself or claimed an older title that Adamant didn't. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 14:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::No not on the rank, although it is a rank — but not the highest rank you can get. It is from the Human mission "The Temple of the Damned". After Llane dies it says you are passed on the mantle of War Leader. I am guessing it is like how the President is Commander-in-Chief during war time. The King is War Leader during war time. I am assuming Adamant was War Leader before that since they had been fighting the Orcs for awhile now, and Adamant was the highest leader while he was alive.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::No not on the rank, although it is a rank — but not the highest rank you can get. It is from the Human mission "The Temple of the Damned". After Llane dies it says you are passed on the mantle of War Leader. I am guessing it is like how the President is Commander-in-Chief during war time. The King is War Leader during war time. I am assuming Adamant was War Leader before that since they had been fighting the Orcs for awhile now, and Adamant was the highest leader while he was alive.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::::That's too much circumspeculation (a word I made up meaning speculation that relies on other speculation) for the infobox. Judging from that, it's like a more localized version of Supreme Allied Commander... well, I guess it can stay in Llane's infobox, but I'm removing it from Adamant's. We have no idea how much of Orcs & Humans, particularly terms that appear only once, is still lore viable. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 02:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::::Okay sounds good. I will also remove Adamant from the War Leader page.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::::Okay sounds good. I will also remove Adamant from the War Leader page.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Old Habits ==
@@ Line 392: / Line 240: @@
 You're falling into your old habits again... with not placing categories or stubs on your newly created articles. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 03:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
-:LOL Okay thanks for the notice. I think I had forgotten about that part.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
+:LOL Okay thanks for the notice. I think I had forgotten about that part.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Art of World of Warcraft ==
@@ Line 402: / Line 250: @@
 ::It's an artbook... location of the art means nothing. Emerald Paradise is not going to be related to Darkshire in anyway... same with other places you're currently making notations about. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 04:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
-::Well if you notice all the art on the pages are connected in someway. I am not saying location only, but like all images could be huge mountains or all images could be in one area.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Well if you notice all the art on the pages are connected in someway. I am not saying location only, but like all images could be huge mountains or all images could be in one area.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::Yes, please avoid crazy uncitable or uncrossreferenceable speculation. Please avoid putting speculation outside of  speculation banners... If you do it too much it could lead to a ban. You might remember some in the past that have been banned for it.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::I am citing it and avoiding speculation. I mean the book isn't called The Concept Art of World of Warcraft.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::I am citing it and avoiding speculation. I mean the book isn't called The Concept Art of World of Warcraft.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::If you think you are avoiding speculation then you are failing miserably. It is pure speculation to state something (I paraphrase your comments); "Might be near each other or connected because they are on the same page".
@@ Line 414: / Line 262: @@
 ::I don't feel like getting my [[The Art of World of Warcraft]] out, so since I have [[The Art of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade]] out atm I'm going to use that as examples... Same page, Arakkoas and Arcane Golem... related? The Broken and Arcane Golems... related? Flesh Beasts and Draenei Pack Animals (Elekks)... related? ''A couple more'' Outland Abyssal and Gluths... related? Fungal monster and Imps... related? So as you can see, location means nothing, sorry if this comes off a little mean. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 05:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Ok well they did it different on that book. I will show you examples now from this book so tell me if I am wrong. Flora. It has two pages of different flora which is related since they are all plants. Knight's Hollow and Duskwood. I think they are related. The Twisting Nether and Outland. Outland is in the Twisting Nether. Idrassil, Magic Mountain, and Icecrown. They are all tall locations. Thunder Bluff and The Thousand Needles. I think related. See what I am saying?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Ok well they did it different on that book. I will show you examples now from this book so tell me if I am wrong. Flora. It has two pages of different flora which is related since they are all plants. Knight's Hollow and Duskwood. I think they are related. The Twisting Nether and Outland. Outland is in the Twisting Nether. Idrassil, Magic Mountain, and Icecrown. They are all tall locations. Thunder Bluff and The Thousand Needles. I think related. See what I am saying?    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::In the way they organize their artwork sure, though as Baggins pointed out, it could simply be in alphabetic order... but that still doesn't mean they could be near or connected to each other as you were adding to those pages. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 05:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::It isn't alphabetical order because they have some Swamp of Sorrows art first. Well I meant to say is "connected" as in location with some pages and others by subject. Knight's Hollow and Duskwood are examples of location. Indrassil, Magic Mountain, and Icecrown are examples of subject.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::It isn't alphabetical order because they have some Swamp of Sorrows art first. Well I meant to say is "connected" as in location with some pages and others by subject. Knight's Hollow and Duskwood are examples of location. Indrassil, Magic Mountain, and Icecrown are examples of subject.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
-==Page moving==
+== Page moving ==
 While yes the page moving feature is open for all to use, please be careful not to move pages unless you have taken the time to discuss the reasons for the move first. That is make sure other people agree with the move. Also try to make sure it won't break too many links on other pages. Avoid double redirects please.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Okay. I am going to undo a lot of my page moves later because I thought about it again and have some different ideas.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay. I am going to undo a lot of my page moves later because I thought about it again and have some different ideas.    &nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Creating new articles ==
@@ Line 429: / Line 277: @@
 Do you ''ever'' look at other similar articles when you create new ones? For example the [[World of Warcraft: Issue 13]] and [[World of Warcraft: Ashbringer: Issue 3]] should be compared to [[World of Warcraft: Issue 12]] and [[World of Warcraft: Ashbringer: Issue 2]] respectively. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Ya...I don't see what your saying.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Ya...I don't see what your saying.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Okay now I see. You wanted me to fill the whole page? I thought someone else would add on to it. I was just starting the page off.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay now I see. You wanted me to fill the whole page? I thought someone else would add on to it. I was just starting the page off.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 12:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Either you add the information that is available, complete with templates and the boilerplate, or you don't. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 12:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Well that is your opinion. Other admins have said something is better than nothing.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Well that is your opinion. Other admins have said something is better than nothing.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Edit summaries ==
@@ Line 441: / Line 289: @@
 For the love of all that is holy.... stop filling the edit summary with vague comments like "grammar edit", or "self edit". Use the edit summary the way it was intended, give a bit more detailed summery of the reasons for changes, and a bit more detailed description of what you changed.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 12:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Okay I was trying to be brief, especially if I am doing a few edits in a row or it is an edit of my own I just made a mistake on within the minute.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay I was trying to be brief, especially if I am doing a few edits in a row or it is an edit of my own I just made a mistake on within the minute.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Well, I'm guilty of forgetting to do this myself at times. But please try to use the show preview feature if possible to avoid the "within a minute" problem.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 13:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 447: / Line 295: @@
 :::This is your last warning on this issue. Your edits have been repeatedly not always correct or up to our standards. Thus we need you to give a more detailed summery of exact changes as you make them. If you keep on using vague summeries such as "factual correction", or "self edit" you may be prevented from editing in the future. If you don't have enough room to give a detailed explanation in the edit summery, then give the explanationin the talk page.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::I thought you told me to start using the "Standard summaries" bar. That is what I am doing instead of just a few of my own words. In fact, that is what everyone else is doing by the recent edits I am looking at right now correct? Also, I haven't used "self edit" since you told me yesterday. I don't know where you saw that.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::I thought you told me to start using the "Standard summaries" bar. That is what I am doing instead of just a few of my own words. In fact, that is what everyone else is doing by the recent edits I am looking at right now correct? Also, I haven't used "self edit" since you told me yesterday. I don't know where you saw that.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::I'm telling you to give an exact description of your change. If its a grammar edit describe the specific type of grammar edit your making, and in which portion of the article.
@@ Line 459: / Line 307: @@
 :::We need even more detail from you than the normal user, as you are currently in a probationary period (as a suspected problem user), for mistakes you have done recently to policies and accuracy.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::I told you a few days ago I was going to move a lot of this stuff back to where it was remember because I moved it incorrectly? Also, read the Kalimdor page. I have cited Teldrassil as a continent and also the citation about Mulgore and others being subcontinents is wrong. Those are regions aka zones. The subcontinents are Northern, Central, and Southern.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::I told you a few days ago I was going to move a lot of this stuff back to where it was remember because I moved it incorrectly? Also, read the Kalimdor page. I have cited Teldrassil as a continent and also the citation about Mulgore and others being subcontinents is wrong. Those are regions aka zones. The subcontinents are Northern, Central, and Southern.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::The citation is a reference to a certain map, the link has been given. Yes the map doesn't make much sense compared to later maps, but yes it split Kalimdor along several large, regions. IN that particular map, it has Mount Hyjal, Mulgore, Durotar, and Kalimdor as major regions. It uses the same font and text size as the regions shown on the eastern kingdoms side of the map, Azeroth, Quel'thalas, Lordaeron, and Khaz Modan.
@@ Line 465: / Line 313: @@
 ::In anycase the point is not to discuss individual edits here, but that you need to now give detailed descriptions of all your edits from now on. Until we deem you are out of the probation period, and deem that your edits are to the quality that we expect from wowwiki users.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Okay but guess what? Azeroth, Lordaeron, etc. have been called continents in lore. Mulgore, Durotar, etc. have been called zones not continents...at least to my lore knowledge. Also, look at the map on the page below. It has Mulgore, Darkshore, and half a dozen regions on the map not continents.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Okay but guess what? Azeroth, Lordaeron, etc. have been called continents in lore. Mulgore, Durotar, etc. have been called zones not continents...at least to my lore knowledge. Also, look at the map on the page below. It has Mulgore, Darkshore, and half a dozen regions on the map not continents.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Thank you for following instructions. It makes much easier to see when you take things out of context, or add comments that are of speculatory nature.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Well check out Kalimdor talk page. I am not sure what your logic on that is but a continent is a continent if so called even if its an island or not.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Well check out Kalimdor talk page. I am not sure what your logic on that is but a continent is a continent if so called even if its an island or not.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 So, by that logic, if I said GM'S Island was a continent, it would automatically be registered as a continent? [[User:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart]] ([[User talk:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|talk]]) 15:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Yes. If it was from a source and not made up. Why would you deny a real source saying that something is a continent? If it was only one mention though and several mentions that it was just an island I would still keep it in the page for posterity somewhere because you can run into sometimes sources that contradict each other, but that does not mean you should remove one like it never happened.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Yes. If it was from a source and not made up. Why would you deny a real source saying that something is a continent? If it was only one mention though and several mentions that it was just an island I would still keep it in the page for posterity somewhere because you can run into sometimes sources that contradict each other, but that does not mean you should remove one like it never happened.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 I don't. I'm simply saying how saying "a continent is a continent if so called even if its an island or not" is foolish like that. Because like I said, by your logic, if I said such a tiny island like GM's Island was a continent, no doubt someone here would rush to edit that into the GM's Island page. And then we'd most likely get flamed since the information was pretty innaccurate, considering GM's Island is nothing more then a tiny island. [[User:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart]] ([[User talk:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|talk]]) 15:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:I am saying if it is from a source...you know cited? Not just made up by a user. A source exists calling Teldrassil an island continent. I didn't say this. All I did was see the information and then put it on the page with a citation. So far I have not seen anything saying GM island is a continent. A continent could be a continental landmass or a continental island.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:I am saying if it is from a source...you know cited? Not just made up by a user. A source exists calling Teldrassil an island continent. I didn't say this. All I did was see the information and then put it on the page with a citation. So far I have not seen anything saying GM island is a continent. A continent could be a continental landmass or a continental island.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 I know that. But honestly. One source says Teldrassil is a continent. One. That doesn't automatically make it a continent. If it did, no doubt Teldrassil would be labeled as a different continent then Kalimdor in WoW. Well whatever, I doubt I should be meddling in affairs that aren't particuarly related to me, so I'm done on this subject, and I'll continue watching the war between you and Baggins go on. [[User:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart]] ([[User talk:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|talk]]) 16:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:I know it is one source. I am not saying to announce to the world that Teldrassil is a continent. It should be mentioned though somewhere on the page and not removed forever. There is no war going on.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:I know it is one source. I am not saying to announce to the world that Teldrassil is a continent. It should be mentioned though somewhere on the page and not removed forever. There is no war going on.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 -stares at the various arguements between Rolandius and Baggins-
 Well, I'm not particularly sure if I believe you about that, but oh well. [[User:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart]] ([[User talk:Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart|talk]]) 16:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Move along nothing to see here.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Move along nothing to see here.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Relevance issues ==
@@ Line 492: / Line 340: @@
 I'm sure Ragestorm has told yo before, about relevence issues. Something that may be intended more as an injoke or easteregg may not merit having its own article. The info probably should be folded into the closest related article, i.e. the existence of Eng-land is not confirmed beyond the reference of a possible deranged character. References to it are not likely to be expanded on, and therefore it would fit better as a sidenote for that NPC's character page. It probably shouldn't even be treated as a real location until something confirms its existence. If the subject of an article is likely to require nearly 98% speculation, and known information is likely to only fill in less than even a full sentence on its own, its probably not worth having as its own article, and probably should be folded into whatever related subject spawned it.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 12:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:The NPC that talks about Eng-land is crazy? Wait a second I remember you said injokes are not okay but eastereggs are okay as in this example.[[Flowerpicker clan]]&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:The NPC that talks about Eng-land is crazy? Wait a second I remember you said injokes are not okay but eastereggs are okay as in this example.[[Flowerpicker clan]]&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Flowerpicker clan has substantial relevance as its existence is being part of hidden game code, and part of the game's internal mechanics. IT is a hidden game feature. Plus, the main description of the hidden file is more than one setence long, and the main description is not made up of 98% speculation.
@@ Line 500: / Line 348: @@
 ::Also one reference to "eng-land" is not even remotely similar, nor useable for creating a page, it doesn't have any detailed info whatsoever, its not a hidden feature in the game code. NOw if more references to Eng-land appear in the future from more than one character, then I'd say those then it would have more relevence and worth having an article discussing known facts of said place if it exists or not. But as of right now any info related to it and any speculation can remain in the character page of the one who brings up her said belief. Now, I seem to recall Ragestorm has gotten onto you over Eng-land issue in the past... I'd suggest you leave it that and don't argue on the issue...[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 13:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Okay I took out Eng-land. I don't think Ragestorm said anything about my Eng-land page since he left it alone. I think he talked about my Pinkspear page though which was removed and then even deleted from a page it was folded into. I think you put it back into the folded into page though.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Okay I took out Eng-land. I don't think Ragestorm said anything about my Eng-land page since he left it alone. I think he talked about my Pinkspear page though which was removed and then even deleted from a page it was folded into. I think you put it back into the folded into page though.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::I don't remember ever seeing your Pinkspear page. I do recall the Eng-land page, and I recall that there was discussion about it, though it apparently wasn't with you... ---[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 13:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::I thought someone said something about my Pinkspear page? They said it was just an in-joke and removed the page and then even removed it from the page it was on previously where I got my idea. I think Baggins then told them it was okay as just part of that previous page because it was an easter egg. I could be mixing things up since it was around 2 months ago.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::I thought someone said something about my Pinkspear page? They said it was just an in-joke and removed the page and then even removed it from the page it was on previously where I got my idea. I think Baggins then told them it was okay as just part of that previous page because it was an easter egg. I could be mixing things up since it was around 2 months ago.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::References in folded pages are fine if it can be confirmed to be related to the subject of the article. There are alot of injoke references in language pages for example. Eng-land's relevence is pretty much limited to Natasha. Since its an offhand remark with no details telling us if its real, her imagination, or simply an injoke it probably shouldn't be put into pages like Continents (which would be applying a bit too much speculation). If it was real, for all we know it could be a town... But that's the problem with it, there isn't much that can be done with the info besides speculation about it...[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 13:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::I thought it was okay on the Continents page. You have South Sea in there. It is just speculation that there is an unnamed large island in there. Also, the section did include "large islands or nations". It could be a large island or nation. It is much better than "some islands in the South Sea".&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::I thought it was okay on the Continents page. You have South Sea in there. It is just speculation that there is an unnamed large island in there. Also, the section did include "large islands or nations". It could be a large island or nation. It is much better than "some islands in the South Sea".&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Your starting again Baggins. You deleted ominous island which is in lore and has several sentences. You just told me a few mins ago to write summaries when I edit yet you just deleted two pages with summary of nothing. Is this going to start again? I can delete too.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Your starting again Baggins. You deleted ominous island which is in lore and has several sentences. You just told me a few mins ago to write summaries when I edit yet you just deleted two pages with summary of nothing. Is this going to start again? I can delete too.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::The problem with the page was the page name. It was a topic without a true name, or official title, just a vague description. I see we don't have an actual island article. I'd probably suggest the way that continent article is being used it probably should be renamed "land masses" to avoid confusion. IN anycase I folded the island into the continent article for the time being, as it is better related to that topic, and I removed the title you used since it isn't an official titel for that island. I've tried to point out that the island doesn't actually have a name, and have reworded the info to reflect that fact.
@@ Line 516: / Line 364: @@
 ::Also you must be blind, I gave  reason why I deleted the page in the talk page...[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 13:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Land masses is a vague name too. Continents is not. I think there shouldn't be any islands or lands on that page unless they are some sort of continent-type landmass. Just put all those islands, nations, or whatever on an "Island" page. Also, you just told me write "better" edit summaries and then you left yours "blank"? You didn't say anything about talk pages. Also another thing with my pages on subjects I found in The Art of World of Warcraft. Gourra said don't make pages out of those brief subjects just list them on the Art of World of Warcraft page so I said okie dokie. Next thing you know I look and find a bunch of brief pages made by people on subjects found in the Art of world of Warcraft. I am confused.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Land masses is a vague name too. Continents is not. I think there shouldn't be any islands or lands on that page unless they are some sort of continent-type landmass. Just put all those islands, nations, or whatever on an "Island" page. Also, you just told me write "better" edit summaries and then you left yours "blank"? You didn't say anything about talk pages. Also another thing with my pages on subjects I found in The Art of World of Warcraft. Gourra said don't make pages out of those brief subjects just list them on the Art of World of Warcraft page so I said okie dokie. Next thing you know I look and find a bunch of brief pages made by people on subjects found in the Art of world of Warcraft. I am confused.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::They're just trying to slow you down... you're making too many pages, most of which are (and you have to admit) pointless. Don't get me wrong, you do make useful inputs and additions, but some pages just aren't needed. {{User:Coobra/Sig3}} 21:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 524: / Line 372: @@
 I.E. southern islands is a generic description, its not a proper noun. This would be the same issue as you using the description "ominous island" as if it was the actual name of the island, despite the islands not actually given a name. The bigger problem with southern islands is that its a description used for alot of islands found in the south, or the South Seas. If it had been capitalized in its original source "Southern Islands", theyet it would have been a proper name, and you would have been justified in making the page, but it wasn't. This is also some what related to one of the previous mistakes you were warned about, "not to create speculatory titles" (stuff like ). Finally remember, "...but other people are doing it" is not a valid excuse or justification for ignoring warnings, it is an "[http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html Appeal to Common Practice]" a type of fallacious reasoning. Remember two wrongs does not make a right.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 22:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Well I am still confused on why I was put on the list. I didn't re-create any deleted pages more than once. I just asked in the talk page why they were deleted. I thought I was told to use talk pages? Each page has a talk page correct? Also, where did I create a page that was confrontational? This is silly. I myself revert vandalism when I see it then next thing you know I am thrown on the vandalism list.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Well I am still confused on why I was put on the list. I didn't re-create any deleted pages more than once. I just asked in the talk page why they were deleted. I thought I was told to use talk pages? Each page has a talk page correct? Also, where did I create a page that was confrontational? This is silly. I myself revert vandalism when I see it then next thing you know I am thrown on the vandalism list.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Do you have a quota on the number of warnings you have to give each day or what? I can't even comment on my own user page without some warning.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Do you have a quota on the number of warnings you have to give each day or what? I can't even comment on my own user page without some warning.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::For your future reference its a "violation list". It is not "vandalism list". Being a suspect doesn't automatically make you a vandal. However it does mean that you commited some violation of policy. It serves as a second degree warning, for a person who commits the same type of violation more than once (after being warned for the first violation). Being a suspect also doesn't mean you will automatically be banned. Basically if you are suspected, you need to look at what you are being supected of, be warned by it, and do not repeat the same type of offense in the future.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 02:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::Okay. Someone edited the page and added some comment in addition to Gourra's. Is that allowed? I never even talked to that person.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Okay. Someone edited the page and added some comment in addition to Gourra's. Is that allowed? I never even talked to that person.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Yes, if someone notices that you may be a repeat offender (by seeing past listings on the page), they can point that out by adding it to the violation list. It is allowed, and it can be used to determine your position and punishment if you make future violations. The violation list is used by all wowwiki members.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 02:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::LOL okay.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::LOL okay.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Signing article ==
@@ Line 540: / Line 388: @@
 I thought by now that you know you shouldn't sign in articles, and '''especially''' not through recreating deleted articles. There's talk pages for that. {{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 14:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-:One, Ragestorm already told me that and I saw your comment on the page summary. You don't have to tell me in triplicate. Second, I thought there wasn't a talk page if the page was deleted and didn't exist anymore so i wrote in there on accident. I then wrote in the talk page but I guess you missed that part.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
+:One, Ragestorm already told me that and I saw your comment on the page summary. You don't have to tell me in triplicate. Second, I thought there wasn't a talk page if the page was deleted and didn't exist anymore so i wrote in there on accident. I then wrote in the talk page but I guess you missed that part.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 14:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Relevance, DNP, and ignoring warnings from admins ==
@@ Line 546: / Line 394: @@
 For ignoring all the warnings given you by various admins, and continuing to be belligerent in adding non-Warcraft-related articles, and because you have been banned before for shorter periods for the same reason, I am blocking you from editing for 1 month.  Your appeal, if you have one, may be posted on this page or e-mailed to me, or Kirkburn via the e-mail user functionality of the wiki.  See you in a month. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 04:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:Surprise, surprise. What non-Warcraft-related articles?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Surprise, surprise. What non-Warcraft-related articles?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::The most recent ones are [[Beggar]], [[Commoner]], [[Novelist]].  I've been deleting others I saw you create in the past couple of days. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 04:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::And what is the matter with them? They were all on wowwiki listed as professions. I just added a page or some NPC's to it.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::And what is the matter with them? They were all on wowwiki listed as professions. I just added a page or some NPC's to it.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::::See Baggins's first post to you under [[#Relevance issues]] above. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 04:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 561: / Line 409: @@
 -[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::Ya I can't remember "fowler". I went to the [[Crafts and professions]] and [[Commoner]] pages and saw those professions. I check WoW and guess what? They are in the game. I thought I would just make pages for them so people can see that there is an NPC called Beggar, there are novels, and there are weavers. I was trying to say that they are "commoners" which is itself an RPG class. What is the difference between my pages and [[Lumberjack]], [[Military commander]], and [[Mortician]]? I am not sure what the template thing your talking about is. If it is the Lady Prestor page you are talking about all I did was copy the way the reference was made for the other Prestor pages in the relatives infobox.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Ya I can't remember "fowler". I went to the [[Crafts and professions]] and [[Commoner]] pages and saw those professions. I check WoW and guess what? They are in the game. I thought I would just make pages for them so people can see that there is an NPC called Beggar, there are novels, and there are weavers. I was trying to say that they are "commoners" which is itself an RPG class. What is the difference between my pages and [[Lumberjack]], [[Military commander]], and [[Mortician]]? I am not sure what the template thing your talking about is. If it is the Lady Prestor page you are talking about all I did was copy the way the reference was made for the other Prestor pages in the relatives infobox.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::Any replies? Beggar is real, Commoner was already there, and novels are real.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Any replies? Beggar is real, Commoner was already there, and novels are real.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 I checked out beggar. You were not exactly wrong for it's creation. But you went about makng the page improperly. As a npc you should have put the npc/stub template on it, and avoided using RPG template. That only confuses people. You also need to avoid using the wrong categories.
@@ Line 581: / Line 429: @@
 Finally just because something is mentioned in a sentence under another topic doesn't mean its worthy of having its own topic.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:I didn't exactly get a chance to do much. I was banned within a minute. I put the RPG last and I put it because there is the WoW mention and the RPG mention. I am pretty sure if I didn't put the RPG part I would have been told why didn't you put the RPG part. Weaver I didn't get the chance to realize it was a dragon I thought it was some weaver page someone made. Once again I was banned within minutes. I linked wood chopper to lumberjack I didn't make up that page. A lumberjack is a wood chopper. You are just making up stuff for some reason. Those were all good links. Beggar is an actual NPC. Wood cutters are Lumberjacks. There are novels in the game, not to be confused with just regular books. Also, what happened to this? "He is free to make edits, but anything you guys have problems with, come talk to me and I'll chat with him. I'm not so bothered by his edits as it seems the rest of you are, so maybe it would work."&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:I didn't exactly get a chance to do much. I was banned within a minute. I put the RPG last and I put it because there is the WoW mention and the RPG mention. I am pretty sure if I didn't put the RPG part I would have been told why didn't you put the RPG part. Weaver I didn't get the chance to realize it was a dragon I thought it was some weaver page someone made. Once again I was banned within minutes. I linked wood chopper to lumberjack I didn't make up that page. A lumberjack is a wood chopper. You are just making up stuff for some reason. Those were all good links. Beggar is an actual NPC. Wood cutters are Lumberjacks. There are novels in the game, not to be confused with just regular books. Also, what happened to this? "He is free to make edits, but anything you guys have problems with, come talk to me and I'll chat with him. I'm not so bothered by his edits as it seems the rest of you are, so maybe it would work."&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::Lumberjack, I looked at the page just minutes ago. It is not redirected to "wood chopper" and the entire page was made by you. I hardly made that page up... as for your last part, that discussion was between you, me, sky and ragestorm. PCJ was not part of that discusison nor was he part of any problems that appeared on that page. He is not bound by whatever went on in there, and is free to make his own decisions based on your past actions. He is free to admin based on his own decisions. It seems he decided that your list in suspect, as well you continued mistakes made recently was enough to ban you. Just because novels exist in the game, doesn't mean "novelist" is a relevent term or important. Especially since yo had to give it a non-warcraft source definition. I had to go about fixing all the mistakes you made in those articles after you made them. I abide by his decision.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]]
-::Finally, no you wouldn't have gotten in trouble for not putting the rpg template up. RPG template should only be used if the article info is orignally from the RPG. Something that appears across several sources probably shouldn't have any template. {{t|multisource}} would have been a better option, or no template at all. Stacking templates is bad, as is putting the fat templates in the middle of articles. Also as I said before using the template is not an excuse for properly using {{t|cite}}, or ref features. YOu have been warned previously for not corrently citing material.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Finally, no you wouldn't have gotten in trouble for not putting the rpg template up. RPG template should only be used if the article info is orignally from the RPG. Something that appears across several sources probably shouldn't have any template. <nowiki>{{multisource}}</nowiki> would have been a better option, or no template at all. Stacking templates is bad, as is putting the fat templates in the middle of articles. Also as I said before using the template is not an excuse for properly using {{t|cite}}, or ref features. YOu have been warned previously for not corrently citing material.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-:::How are you saying I made up the page? All I did was put [[Lumberjack|wood chopper]] since wood chopper was there already. Okay so Pcj was not aware. Tell him about it. You can't just say okay here is a solution woops nope nevermind your banned.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::How are you saying I made up the page? All I did was put [[Lumberjack|wood chopper]] since wood chopper was there already. Okay so Pcj was not aware. Tell him about it. You can't just say okay here is a solution woops nope nevermind your banned.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 ::You seem to be confused, PCJ was in his right as an admin to make the decision on his own. The idea by sky waa suggestion made in confidence to me, ragestorm and you, and no one else. Nor was it a freepass to continue making mistakes. Also as far as I know PCJ has more experience with Administration than sky, ragestorm or even me. He he been an admin on several wikis. He may even have seniority on this staff (though I don't know for sure). I must warn you again its not my job to step between you and PCJ. If you want to tell him, tell him yourself (you will not pit me against him, and I will respect his decisions, whatever they may be). But remember as an admin he can make his own decisions, and he doesn't necessarily have to agree with another admins suggestion.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 593: / Line 441: @@
 :I'll apoligize for accusing lumberjack as your page. It was actually coobras. I've taken the time to fix it by making it an disambig page, as there are alot of lumberjack NPCs in WoW.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 06:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::Ya, this is a bit too much trouble. You guys are just making up half of the reasons to ban me. With your enthusiasm to ban me you have missed the evidence. It is like you do not read half of what I write. Pcj banned me because he said the latest pages I made, like Beggar and Commoner, were DNP. Beggar is an NPC in the game so I don't see how that was wrong. Commoner I never even created that page. Now you said that somehow I had said that you made up some "wood chopper" page and that I made it up instead. Neither of us made up the "wood chopper" page. All I did was link the word "wood chopper" to the [[Lumberjack]] page so people can see the word "wood chopper" and go to the profession, Lumberjack. All I did was see the Commoner page and it had a dozen professions, which I then cross-referenced with that page that listed all kinds of professions so that I was sure I was making some profession up and to avoid exactly what is happening now. I was trying to link those commoner professions to the correct profession page or else make the page like with Beggar. Your acting like I just thought to myself what professions and pages should I make up and make people mad. I'll make up Beggar, novelist, tavern owners, and craftsmen because they doesn't exist in WoW. I didn't do that. I cross-referenced and check for NPCs on all those things i made, except novelist which I put two "romance" novels that are in the game as evidence. See what I mean?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Ya, this is a bit too much trouble. You guys are just making up half of the reasons to ban me. With your enthusiasm to ban me you have missed the evidence. It is like you do not read half of what I write. Pcj banned me because he said the latest pages I made, like Beggar and Commoner, were DNP. Beggar is an NPC in the game so I don't see how that was wrong. Commoner I never even created that page. Now you said that somehow I had said that you made up some "wood chopper" page and that I made it up instead. Neither of us made up the "wood chopper" page. All I did was link the word "wood chopper" to the [[Lumberjack]] page so people can see the word "wood chopper" and go to the profession, Lumberjack. All I did was see the Commoner page and it had a dozen professions, which I then cross-referenced with that page that listed all kinds of professions so that I was sure I was making some profession up and to avoid exactly what is happening now. I was trying to link those commoner professions to the correct profession page or else make the page like with Beggar. Your acting like I just thought to myself what professions and pages should I make up and make people mad. I'll make up Beggar, novelist, tavern owners, and craftsmen because they doesn't exist in WoW. I didn't do that. I cross-referenced and check for NPCs on all those things i made, except novelist which I put two "romance" novels that are in the game as evidence. See what I mean?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::Look, PCJ is the one who made the decision its not my job to step in between him and his decision. Infact, if you missed his first post, appeals must be made to him or [[User:Kirkburn]]. I've tried to explain, to best as I know it, but its not my place... I'll leave it to you three to discuss this out.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 06:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::Okay I will ask him.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::Okay I will ask him.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 == Pcj over here ==
-I guess this is the quicker of the three ways since e-mail may be slow. Pcj, the Beggar page is not DNP. The commoner page I never even made up. The Novelist page was made because there is a profession called "novelist" in lore so I made the page so I could list the two romance novels that so far had found and which are different than just regular in-books. All those pages/links I made in the last few hours are real. I found them on the [[Commoner]] page, which I did not create, and the [[Crafts and professions]] page. There are tavern owners, craftsmen, beggars, etc. in lore and WoW so I wanted to link them up, like I did with tavern owner and wood chopper/Lumberjack, or at least help by making the pages and then putting the NPCs or items into those pages, like I did with Beggar and Novelist. I didn't think to myself and say okay I am going to add bus driver and fireman so I can make everyone mad on wowwiki. I hope you understand.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+I guess this is the quicker of the three ways since e-mail may be slow. Pcj, the Beggar page is not DNP. The commoner page I never even made up. The Novelist page was made because there is a profession called "novelist" in lore so I made the page so I could list the two romance novels that so far had found and which are different than just regular in-books. All those pages/links I made in the last few hours are real. I found them on the [[Commoner]] page, which I did not create, and the [[Crafts and professions]] page. There are tavern owners, craftsmen, beggars, etc. in lore and WoW so I wanted to link them up, like I did with tavern owner and wood chopper/Lumberjack, or at least help by making the pages and then putting the NPCs or items into those pages, like I did with Beggar and Novelist. I didn't think to myself and say okay I am going to add bus driver and fireman so I can make everyone mad on wowwiki. I hope you understand.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :I'm going give you some advice. You really should follow his instructions and email this message to him, and/or kirkburn. Also you need to discuss every single reason given for your ban, not just these few. From what I can see in his first post, he didn't just ban you because of these, but banned you for other things as well. Actually he gave a lot of reasons that you haven't responded to. Also you must understand, that even if he changed his mind on what you discussed above, doesn't necessarily mean he will ignore all the other reasons he gave for the ban (i.e. change the above won't necessarily change his ruling). All the other reasons (beyond the ones you discussed) could still be taken into account, and reasons aren't cumulitive, any single reason could be enough to get you the ban.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 06:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::Ah okay. I thought he said I could use my talk page to ask him also. I am not sure if he is online. Well, I will e-mail him then.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Ah okay. I thought he said I could use my talk page to ask him also. I am not sure if he is online. Well, I will e-mail him then.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::Baggins mentioned those articles when I asked him what all the problems were with you, and from when I looked at them, the articles you created (or what you submitted to existing articles) were simply definitions of what they were in real-world terms and/or did not make any sense (both of which are against DNP).  Also, you were banned because you continued to defy admin's warnings (see above: [[#Creating new articles|1]], [[#Relevance issues|2]]; and similarly in the past, [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive1#New articles|3]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive1#On my radar|4]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive1#Notability|5]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive1#Citations|6]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive1#Ok you're banned.|7]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive2#Empires|8]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive2#Bloodaxe clan|9]] [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive2#Sorry to have to do this...|10]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive2#Creating new articles|11]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive2#WW:STUB|12]], [[User talk:Rolandius/Archive2#Art of World of Warcraft|13]]) not to create articles such as these (i.e., NPC pages against the boilerplate), or create one-line articles (i.e., stubs) padded with non-Warcraft-related information, or fail to cite references. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 13:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::Well I hope you read my e-mail to you about the solution Sky came up with. Also, some of those pages Baggins told you about originally, he has since told me that it wasn't my fault, like the Lumberjack/wood chopper page and the Commoner page.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::Well I hope you read my e-mail to you about the solution Sky came up with. Also, some of those pages Baggins told you about originally, he has since told me that it wasn't my fault, like the Lumberjack/wood chopper page and the Commoner page.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 15:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::Having an admin hold your hand to edit does not excuse the fact that you are in violation of policy already. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 15:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::We came up with that plan to hold my hand before you banned me. No one had told you yet I guess so I don't think I should have been banned so quick-like. This is especially true when some of the pages, that you told me that you had asked Baggins about, he then later told me that they were not all my fault.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::We came up with that plan to hold my hand before you banned me. No one had told you yet I guess so I don't think I should have been banned so quick-like. This is especially true when some of the pages, that you told me that you had asked Baggins about, he then later told me that they were not all my fault.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::The ban is not based on what Baggins said, it is based on my assessment of your edits combined with your history. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::I know but some of the assessment on my edits was based on what Baggins had said. You told me you had asked him what pages were the problems. Also, is my history going to affect me forever? If I made a mistake like 3 months ago that counts against me forever?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::I know but some of the assessment on my edits was based on what Baggins had said. You told me you had asked him what pages were the problems. Also, is my history going to affect me forever? If I made a mistake like 3 months ago that counts against me forever?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::Remember, your ban is also because you were ignoring warnings from admins, not to mention what appears to be attempting to pit the admins against each other.  None of my assessment of your edits was based on what Baggins said, he did mention that you weren't listening to him and asked me to step in; from that perspective, yes, ignoring and disrespecting Baggins and other admins did bring about your ban more quickly.  Double jeopardy is not involved here, the fact of the matter is that you continue to ignore warnings and treat the situation like you can do whatever you want on this wiki.  We've asked you several times (at least thirteen separate times as it appears above) to change how you edit but you haven't listened yet.  Hopefully this ban will cause you to step back and take a look at what the admins have said. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::::I am not an administrator fight organizer I am telling you. Also, that is like saying I have more power than all the admins somehow. I don't know why Baggins asked you to step in since he knew about the idea we had talked about plus he told me you were the one that banned me it had nothing to do with him.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::I am not an administrator fight organizer I am telling you. Also, that is like saying I have more power than all the admins somehow. I don't know why Baggins asked you to step in since he knew about the idea we had talked about plus he told me you were the one that banned me it had nothing to do with him.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::::Baggins didn't ask me to ban you, he asked me to review your situation and attempt to communicate what he was trying to tell you (but you weren't listening to him). --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::::::Okay he said to communicate what he was trying to tell me and so your answer was to ban me? That doesn't make sense.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::::Okay he said to communicate what he was trying to tell me and so your answer was to ban me? That doesn't make sense.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::::::Like I said, you weren't listening.  Maybe you will in a month. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::Well Baggins had already agreed on the idea. He said you are the one that banned me. So was it you or him or both?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::Well Baggins had already agreed on the idea. He said you are the one that banned me. So was it you or him or both?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::::::::I banned you for the reasons stated above upon review of your edits and history (as stated above).  My review was initially requested by Baggins (as stated above), but he had no part in the ban except to offer his approval of my right to ban you (as stated above) after the fact. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::::Well then he should not have requested anything because he had just agreed to the previous idea. Why would he agree to something with me then request you look into it?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::::Well then he should not have requested anything because he had just agreed to the previous idea. Why would he agree to something with me then request you look into it?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::::::::::You will have to take up that fact with him.  In any case, I did review your history and found it worthy of a ban. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::::::No way. Baggins said to talk to you because the ban was all you.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::::::No way. Baggins said to talk to you because the ban was all you.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 :::::::::::::::::::The ban was my doing and was only initiated by Baggins's request.  If Baggins had not requested and I had looked through your edit and discussion history, I would've come to the same conclusion.  Do not continue to attempt to pit administrators against each other; this is your final warning on this issue. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 16:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
-::::::::::::::::::::Okay so now I have the power to control admins? Interesting.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[Image:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::::::::::::::::Okay so now I have the power to control admins? Interesting.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 == <strike>Hyphens</strike> N-dashes ==
-Actually, Rolandius, what you're putting in aren't hyphens, they're em dashes. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 00:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
+Actually, Rolandius, what you're putting in aren't hyphens, they're em dashes. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 00:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-:I thought somebody called those hyphens and not em dashes. Well whatever it is officially called, your supposed to put a — in a lot of sentences and not a - or a --.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 00:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
+:I thought somebody called those hyphens and not em dashes. Well whatever it is officially called, your supposed to put a — in a lot of sentences and not a - or a --.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 00:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::Definetly an em dash. Hyphens are used when combining two words, ie, Governor-general or Mrs. Barker-Finch. -_[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 00:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::That is what I thought. Someone told me I was grammar checking a lot and putting hyphens. I was using — though. Well what I am trying to say is that a lot of times I see a - or even a -- when a — should be used.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 00:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::That is what I thought. Someone told me I was grammar checking a lot and putting hyphens. I was using — though. Well what I am trying to say is that a lot of times I see a - or even a -- when a — should be used.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 00:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::The publishing world is kinda mixed on the issue. RPG actually uses <strike>hiphens</strike> n-dashes more than it uses em dashes.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 00:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
@@ Line 665: / Line 513: @@
 In any case, hyphens or em dashes are fine. I don't see a reason not to change hyphens to em dashes when appropriate - but I wouldn't say either way is "better" for the purposes of the website. Same way US and British English are fine, but can be switched (GB-->US) when appropriate. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 01:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
-:::Yes, but in those same classes, if the teacher or professor saw something and corrected it, I don't think you can say "but Ernest Hemingway did it". When you are a famous author, then you can write run-on sentences all you like. We should try to stay as grammaticaly correct as we can. With some areas though, we might run into a situation where either way is okay. In that case, someone telling the other person that they changed the sentence just because of one symbol is crazy.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[Image:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
+:::Yes, but in those same classes, if the teacher or professor saw something and corrected it, I don't think you can say "but Ernest Hemingway did it". When you are a famous author, then you can write run-on sentences all you like. We should try to stay as grammaticaly correct as we can. With some areas though, we might run into a situation where either way is okay. In that case, someone telling the other person that they changed the sentence just because of one symbol is crazy.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|<span style="" title="x20px">{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}</span>]]&nbsp;{{#if:Wc3Knight.gif|[[File:Wc3Knight.gif|16x16px|x20px]]&nbsp;}}<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Contributions">contr</span>]]{{#if:|&nbsp;-&nbsp;[ <span style="" title="{{#if:Rolandius|Rolandius|Rolandius}}'s Website">web</span>]}})</small> 01:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 ::Style can also vary by region, one grade school may tell you to use emdashes another may tell you to use regular <strike>dashes</strike> n-dash. In my experience I've seen different english books by different publishers sometimes give conflicting "grammar" advice between each other. This probably has to do with the fact that there are several different english dialects with their own types of "grammar".[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 17:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 :I've resurrected this old discussion to point out something Wikipedia ([[Wikipedia:Em_dash#En_dash_versus_em_dash]];) explained about style of n-dashes (the hyphen like dashes often used in the Warcraft Books) verses m-dashes. It does point out that was right that grammar rules vary by different editors and books of style. IT shows that grammar rules can vary from one grammar rule book to another and from region to region.
+:::=== En dash versus em dash ===
+:::The en dash is half the width of the em dash. The width of the en dash was originally the width of the typeset lowercase letter '[[n]]', while the width of the em dash was the width of an uppercase '[[M]]'—hence the names. A more correct definition of the [[Em (typography)#Incorrect and alternate definitions|em width]] is the point size of the currently used font, since the M character does not occupy an exact square in many fonts.<ref>{{cite web | title = A glossary of typographic terms | publisher = Adobe | accessdate=2007-10-18 | url = http://www.adobe.com/uk/type/topics/glossary.html#ememspaceemquad}}</ref>
+:::Traditionally an em dash—like so—or a spaced em dash — like so — has been used for a dash in running text. ''[[The Elements of Typographic Style]]'' recommends the more concise spaced en dash – like so – and argues that the length and visual magnitude of an em dash "belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography." The spaced en dash is also the house style for certain major publishers ([[Penguin Group|Penguin]], [[Cambridge University Press]], and [[Routledge]] among them). However, some longstanding typographical guides such as ''[[The Chicago Manual of Style]]'' still recommend unspaced em dashes for this purpose. The ''[[Hart's Rules|Oxford Guide to Style]]'' (2002, section 5.10.10) acknowledges that this style is used by "other British publishers", but observes that Oxford University Press (OUP) does not use it. In practice, there is little consensus, and it is a matter of personal or house taste.
+:::The en dash (always with spaces, in running text) and the ''spaced'' em dash both have a certain technical advantage over the ''unspaced'' em dash. In most typesetting and most word processing, the spacing between words is expected to be variable, so there can be [[Justification (typesetting)|full justification]]. Alone among punctuation that marks pauses or logical relations in text, the ''unspaced'' em dash disables this for the words between which it falls. The effect can be uneven spacing in the text.
+:::En dashes are often preferred to em dashes when text is set in narrow columns (as in newspapers and similar publications).
+:::The ''spaced'' em dash risks introducing excessive separation of words: it is already long, and the spaces increase the separation. In full justification, the adjacent spaces may be stretched, and the separation of words is further exaggerated.
+[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 08:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::Okay could we get a distilled version? I also think I have read that depending on your computer/keyboard you might not have all the different varieties. Luckily, wowwiki has two types of inserts below mostly commonly used. Wikipedia says that there are four common types of dashes ( ‒, –, —, ― ) and two common types of hyphens ( -, ‐ ) so it can get confusing. Especially if you want to count the uncommon types. Now tell me if this is right or wrong or if it goes either way. I have been editing like so. I use the first "insert" below on wowwiki (–) with no spaces for hyphens and I use the second insert ( — ) with spaces for em dashes. I will now write a few sentences to illustrate this:
+::::*My favorite levels in WoW were levels 65-70. (correct way?) <---- I used the first insert, the hyphen.
+::::*My favorite levels in WoW were levels 65 - 70. (wrong way?) <---- I used the first insert, the hyphen.
+::::*My favorite class in WoW — don't get me wrong they all are good — is the Paladin. (correct way?) <---- I used the second insert, the em dash.
+::::*My favorite class in WoW—don't get me wrong they all are good—is the Paladin. (wrong way?) <---- I used the second insert, the em dash.
+::::Now I am not including quotes from sources since they could vary, I am just talking about user edits. I have seen everything from a (— ) or a ( —) used to a (--) or a ( -- ) used, I think, incorrectly.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 09:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Personally I'd say I fall into the group that prefers n-dashes over m-dashes. As that was what I was taught in school. I prefer the spaced n-dash over closed.
+:::I can understand where your coming from as you were taught the em-dash method instead. I rather don't like the look of closed em-dashes.
+:::Hyphenated things? I prefer closed.
+:::I agree that double dashes(the short variety) or minus signs should be avoided altogether. Although personally I can't see much of a difference between the long hyphen (whatever the second hyphen is called) and a n-dash.
+:::I can understand where the problem gets worse based on limits to keyboards/computers though. The average joe probably doesn't even know ascii commands.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 09:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::Okay my last paragraph was just cloned by you. Yeah, I don't even think I can make the en dash with my keyboard. Wikipedia says on Macs you use option-shift-hyphen for em dashes (—). That works. Then it says use option-hyphen for en dashes (–). That doesn't work it just makes a hyphen again for me. I think I can use the minus symbol Insert below on wowiki though to sort of look like a en dash (−). For some reason the minus symbol on my keyboard comes out as a hyphen (-) but the minus symbol below looks like (−). Well I guess I learn something new everyday. I hope Pcj reads my e-mail soon so I can figure out what is going on.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 10:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Hmm yes the long minus sign does look like an n-dash.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 10:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Nevermind. Typing option-hyphen (–) does make a en dash only after I hit "save page". Interesting.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 10:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+== Operator could I get Baggins ==
+Okay Baggins if you are out there. Pcj has transfered me to you. Why did you tell him to "look into the problem" when we had already talked about it and it was all done earlier? Also, you told me the ban had nothing to do with you and that Pcj had just decided to ban me all by himself.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 16:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Yes, I did try to discuss this with him, while we were discussing it in here last night. I even told him Begger wasn't a problem except that you didn't clearly show that it was an in-game npc (remember you need to use {{t|Stub/NPC}} anytime you make an npc stub).  You can't expect people to understand that it is a valid article if you don't point out in the first place. Alternatively, you should have been more specific giving out the details of the NPC, its character levels for example, so that people are clear that it was a mob.
+:I let him know that commoner by itself was not a problem. However, we did discuss that linking generic titles and then making "stubs" from the is a problem (the warning I gave in edit summery before he banned you). As Ragestorm suggested in his talk page which you ignored, you should have asked before creating such pages, "The only recommendations I have are getting a second opinion when starting new articles". You should have gotten a second opinion before you started the new article so that everything was clear from the start.
+:You know you for one make alot of boneheaded mistakes (too many) & need to be more careful. You wonder why you are confused all the time? Well its probably because you leave us confused alot of the time. I've had to come back and fix alot of things you left unfinished.  You need to use the correct templates dependent on what you are making. Also thank you for pointing out coobra's generic page creation. We shouldn't have to repeatedly warn you about this.
+:Also we shouldn't have to warn you that if you create a page and put something on the page from any source you need to put down the citation. Failing to put down the citation is a violation. A citation isn't a sure method that your article will be accepted or allowed, but allows the admins and book keeper the ability to check up on the source see how valid or relevent the reference really is in comparison to a wide range of sources (yes we cross reference information) and clean things up. Leaving out citations is a repeated offense and is not tolerated. We have banned people in the past for this repeated offense alone. Like I said before, yes you did put up the RPG template, but that was not an excuse for the lack of a real citation. This is not an appeal to common practice, it is our policy.
+:Yes, you are right Coobra has made some questionable pages, and didn't even disambig them correctly (he will get a warnign for that). However, I have warned you in the past that "[http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html appeal to common practice]" is a fallacy and will not be used in support of your personal mistakes. Two wrongs do make a right. Even if others do it doesn't mean you will get off from doing it. But thanks for pointing out another person who has done it, the people you have tattled on will now be taken into consideration.
+:Finally, since PCJ banned you. There isn't much I can do about it (I'm not going to reduce the time of the ban, I gave you that mercy last time). But like I said yesterday you have a long list of mistakes, and he decided it was a reason to ban you. I might have shown you mercy (perhaps too much) by holding off banning you much earlier (believe me I thought about it). Pcj decided you had made too many "mistakes" and violations. Remember even if a violation is made by accident it still is a violation, and they can stack up.
+:Also, let me warn you that you have bewildered nearly every single person on the admin staff at this point. Except for perhaps Sky. In discussions they have all pretty much agreed that you were on your way to a ban, and that they were all thinkingo of banning you. Ragestorm and I have given some restraint and held back. He was going to leave you in the hands of one of the head administration, as he didn't want to act himself.
+:Since quite a few people were are in agreement that you have made too many ban worthy offenses, I will not interfere. I agree with them. I was too lenient, I showed too much mercy. Frankly the usual method for problem users who make mistakes too much (yes, m1330/kesmana made many of the same mistakes as you, you never saw the overall history about him) is that if they can't be corrected, and repeated similar kinds of mistakes even after being told to be careful ultimately get banned. He started out very much like you, and we gave him alot of mercy, and he got banned several times. He's now cooling off for a year. If he comes back and starts up again, he will be banned permanetly. This isn't hatred against the person, we just can't let people get away with repeated offenses. His sockpuppet was only the latest in his line of offenses. We have probably shown you more mercy that the average person. We have banned people for less... You are welcome to look through the archives of the violtion list for a huge number of reasons we ban people.
+:Btw, verbally attacking another user yesterday by accusing them of being someone else over your created speculation, should have given you an instant ban... Flaming someone & making accusations, because you disagreed, is one of the top offenses, and you should have known better. We have also told you in the past to be careful about not entitling something based on assumptions. Calling it a "mistake" doesn't quite cut it. Saying I made a mistake is not a valid excuse for repetive practice. Remember someone can only cry wolf so many times...
+:Feel free to discuss your position with Kirkburn if you like. But I have said my peace. There will be no more arguements with you.-[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 18:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
+::That is silly coming from you who refuses to stop argueing. The point is yesterday we resolved this and I thought the problem was solved. Instead of talking to Sky like you agreed to you went to Pcj and told him to "look into this". What Pcj then did was look at Beggar, Lumberjack, and some other pages and thought okay he made this all up and counted it against me when Beggar was a real page and some other I never even created in the first place. What are you talking about citations? I have cited the stuff I put on the page. You have taken cited material and just made it disappear. I remember Kirkburn saying that just because a cited material is contradicted doesn't mean it disappears like it never existed. You point it out on the page. I am pretty sure you know this. Also, your telling me to cite stuff that is obvious like an image. I had the image of the NPC Beggar from WoW on there. How much more citation can you get. I even linked the commoner page so people could see that there are also beggars in the RPG. Where in wowwiki does it say "when creating a page you must 100% finish it". That is why people can edit so that others can add onto a page additional information. Also, I have never said anything about Coobra. I haven't even said his name once until now and you are coming out with "Yes, you are right Coobra has made some questionable pages, and didn't even disambig them correctly (he will get a warnign for that)." That is you talking Baggins not me. I did not tattle on anyone. It looks like your the one pitting people against each other now. First you agree with a solution, then you tell Pcj to go look into it so your not the one seen as doing anything. Now your saying I said all this stuff about Coobra. And about your famous fallacies, I never said hey Coobra did something why can't I? If you read my talk page people will see the stories you are making up. I said I never made some pages that you had accused me of making. Now your taking that and saying, "okay you didn't make those pages up but now Coobra made it so he is in trouble thanks to you". What is that all about? I think you know better than to do that.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+:I'm not going to say anymore after this, but I donh't what what your talking about but I didn't agree to anything with sky. I guess I did glance over sky's message early on, but I Didn't really look at until you to after you brought it up. Yes while he did type it out in confidence to both ragestorm and I... I never actually posted any agreement in the thread. I haven't even decided if I agree or not on that issue. As for banning you it was PCJ decision, not mine. All I did was discuss the issue of your edits and page creations with with him.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 02:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+::What are you talking about? I didn't bring it up to you. You already knew about it. I replied on Ragestorm's talk page "okay sounds good". You argued more on Ragestorm's page and I fianlly said "ok this seems to be over lets go contribute to wowwiki". You did agree with it as you say above on my talk page when I asked why Pcj had banned me. You told me he didn't know about what Sky, you, Ragestorm, and I had been talking about so you cannot get in the middle and I should talk to Pcj. I found out later that you actually told Pcj to "look into it". Interesting. Now today I read about how I somehow told you about Coobra and who knows who else's entries being bad or something. You make up good stories Baggins.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::I see Baggins is still talking badly about me he just can't stop. I am not even able to edit and yet he keeps padding the violation list with things he thinks up. What is this story of you being my mentor? Another great story from Baggins. And that user yesterday attacked me. He said Thrall was not in the Arathi Highlands during Warcraft III, that he starts in Kalimdor. He asked me how do I know Thrall is in the Arathi Highlands? I told him well by the look of the demo it says Thrall starts in the Arathi Highlands. Baggins then told me it is my fault that I didn't direct the user to the Exodus of the Horde part of the game. I told Baggins that the Exodus of the Horde is on the same page just one or two paragraphs below. The demo also led me to believe that the orc in the starting screen is Thrall since he has chains on his hands and you hit "play" and then your in the Arathi Highlands as Thrall. It is only the demo you can't see every campaign. That user then attacked me saying it was not Thrall because the rocks and soil are wrong and that it looks the Barrens, Kalimdor. Of course Baggins went to the violation list to add more stuff about me. When I asked why everytime I post something asking a question he adds more to the violation list he replied that he doesn't...then went to the violation list again.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::Seriously, cut it out.  This is [[WW:DNP]], further offenses will lengthen your ban and I will protect your talk page so you can't edit it. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 03:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::Okay tell Baggins about DNP then.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::::Your ban has been lengthened to 3 months for attempting to play admins against each other, as I warned you above. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 03:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::::::Okay go ahead make up stories willy nilly.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+Hello. Yes, I have been vaguely following this; no, it is not going to change anything. You are about the only user we have ever had who has required the input of almost every single active sysop on the wiki. They keep giving you advice, you keep trying rebuttals for it all. At some point you have to realise the admins are the ones who have been around longest, and best know how the wiki runs. I trust them - you should, too. Of course, everyone should get constructive criticism if needed ... that being said, when I keep hearing one person complaining about the admins, I am inclined to suggest that it is not the admins at fault. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 03:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+:I know they have been around a long time that is why I have been trying to talk about it and yesterday a solution was thought of. After agreeing with it though, it was almost immediately broken. How can I trust some of them now after stories are just made up about me and agreements voided?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
+::As I have been asked, I am fine with the idea of Sky mentoring you. ''Edit: noting the protection of this page, the admins will have an off wiki discussion about the situation.'' {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 12:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
+== The new deal ==
+Here's what we (the admins) have worked out.  Your ban will be reduced to the original month, and after that you will be on strict probation for at least the two months after (the remainder of your current 3 month ban), under the careful tutelage of [[User:Sky2042]].  You'll have to work with him on what you should and shouldn't do, how you should edit, etc.  However, the rest of the admins will continue to watch you, and will alert Sky if there's any problems.  Just beware the dark side of editing, and your re-training should go well.
+While you're banned and can't edit, you might want to take the time to read the [[WoWWiki:Policies|WoWWiki policies]] in order to familiarize yourself better with them.
+I am going to release the protection on your talk page, but don't spend a lot of time editing it except to respond to things said here.  You're still banned, and if I see too much non-reply editing going on I will protect the page again. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 19:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay I will read them. I guess my user page counts as something I cannot edit?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
+== Dark Iron Forge ==
+I saw yesterday that someone mentioned in the "edit summary" of their edit that Rolandius, that is me, had put "Dark Iron Forge" in the [[Elemental Plane]] page. I never put that, and I think it was added before I even joined WoWWiki.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
+:I checked your edit history. Yes doesn't look like you added that. Don't worry.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 02:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
+::Ok, no problem.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
+:::Strangely enough it looks like something I must have accidently copied over from somewhere else when I copied the list into the page. Anycase its removed now, so it shouldn't be misleading to anyone at this point.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 03:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
+::::I didn't know you could edit the "edit summary" afterwards if you put something in you later don't want in there. Well it is probably copied over like you said from a previous edit you might have done of the same page. It might have been some other stuff I had put into the page?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
+== Hillsbrad maps ==
+I saw this map which illustrates Hillsbrad's location by combining two maps, one from the orc campaign and one from the human campaign.[http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:HillsbradWC2.jpg] Shouldn't the orc campaign map from [[Attack_on_Zul%27dare]] be used too?&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
+:The Hillsbrad map that combines the two maps, is to show that there is a certain grove of trees that appears in both maps, although the scale is different in the two maps.
+:Unfortunately the Attack on Zul'dare while known to occur in the Channel Islands region, the map shows completely different shaped islands from the other map. None of the islands quite match up to any elements on either of the other two maps. So there is no way to point out where it is exactly in relation to the other maps, even if you changed its scale. It doesn't quite match up with any specific elements in the map. Because of this there is no way to know exactly where its located in relation to the mainland.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 06:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Although the maps both show those grove of trees, it could go either way. In some ways it looks they match on the left side, but then again the right side of the two maps do not match up even with the scaling fixed. Also, how could the orcs start right on top of Hillsbrad in one mission, while in another mission it is Hillsbrad on that same spot. The top map would have to be elsewhere.
+::The Attack on Zul'dare map takes place at Hillsbrad I believe. It looks to me like a zoomed-in portion of the the bottom part of Hillsbrad. Those islands that don't match up are just too small to be shown on the larger map. When zoomed-in to show the Attack on Zul'dare area, you can then see more small islands that is all I think. Although you could say that the map is not of Hillsbrad and the relation to the mainland is unknown, it does say in the mission briefing that you, number one, are attacking an orc base south-east of Hillsbrad and, number two, are building transports in order to begin crossing the channel. If that map shows you somewhere in the channel islands already then you would have to wonder, number one, how did you get to the island if your mission is to build transports to cross the channel in the first place and, number two, why would they say the orc base is south-east of Hillsbrad if your not going to be starting at Hillsbrad but instead on some island? Your starting area is north-west of the orc base so it would seem to be a part of Hillsbrad.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 11:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
+:In Attack on Hillsbrad, you leave from an island, to attack the coastal township of Hillsbrad. In Raid at Hillsbrad you attack the township from the grove. Both maps are said to take place in the "township of Hillsbrad", see official strategy guide for more details. They have to be near each other, and the township is established to be a coastal town. In anycase that map is in the speculation section.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 02:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
+== [[user:Rolandius/Mentor]] ==
+Go go go. I set up an initial template for you. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [http://www.wowhead.com/?user=Skyfire w]) 05:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay let me get my folder of ideas that I have come up with out. It may take awhile since it weighs many tons.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 07:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
+== Welcome back! ==
+Remember to contact me, if you have any questions. --[[File:gengar orange 22x22.png]]&nbsp;[[User:Fandyllic|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Fandyllic</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Fandyllic|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Fandyllic|contr]])</small> 11:32 AM PST 26 Sep 2008
+:It is good to be back. LOL Thanks.&nbsp;[[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]]&nbsp;[[File:Paladin.gif|25x25px]]&nbsp;<small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]]&nbsp;-&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Welcome back, Rolandius :D I see you're being much more productive this time around, adding much-needed quotes from manuals and fixing other stuff. Good to see you're back in action. Just make sure you refrain from using your 'self edit' and 'new info' tags and you'll be fine ;) [[User:Dragola|Dragola]] ([[User talk:Dragola|talk]]) 12:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::right, "self edit" and "new info" is a bit too vague.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 17:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
+::::Okay I will try to expand on those. When I put "self edit" it usually means I accidently put something myself, like maybe spelling orc as orcc, and then I fixed it right away. New info I found from the pull down menu so I thought that it was okay, but I guess I will add more info. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:I think there is a little checkbox for "minor edits", like fixing a spelling mistake. Never used it to see what it does though.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 02:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+== Red links ==
+Please avoid making links to anything that doesn't have an article yet. Also make sure that if there is going to be an article make sure its relevant and has enough material to fill it out. If the limits to information is a sentence, but you feel that there is something important about it, then interlink to a wikipedia article on the subject.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:Does that mean that it is okay if I remove red links that I find on pages? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:If its a red link to an NPC leave it. If its a redlink to a generic profession. Probably best to remove it.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Okie dokie. Sometimes I see red links in a page and I never thought of removing them. The red links I have seen range from a book author's name to items. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+Ingame items should be red. They will and should have an article infact you might choose to put up the stub/articles, and use the laurlybot template to request an article. if its a generic non-ingame item that can't possible have a releveant article, then it probably shouldn't be linked. Author names are certain worthy of having articles, so red links are ok.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Of course this ties into avoid making articles for every RPG item... We don't want to plagiarize the entire book of M&M, and MM&M :p...[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay so occupations and articles of non in-game items that cannot possibly have information are okay to remove. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Is there any situation in which we could make pages for RPG items? I am guessing RPG items that also exist in WoW are okay if they are not on WoWWiki yet? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::If the item has a picture in the rpg, then it stands out. Those can make good articles. If the item is an item in WoW MMO, then add the lore to the wow item page, it enhances the article. If the item is incredibly important to the point that it has a connection to relevent characters from the games, then it might be worth adding an article. I'd suggest asking in your mentor page before hand though.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::::Okay I will. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+== Languages ==
+Yes, there are various groups, or organizations that might know a particular language. That info is best put in the language sections of the individual race if it is truly relevant. The language pages themselves should be mainly devote to the main race that developed and uses the language.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]])
+:What if it is only "a few corrupt orcs" or "a few night elves"? Do we write the language in the infobox and then note that is it "a few" of that race that know the language? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:If its a few, its probably not exactly relevant. Any individuals can learn any language. The infobox shows the ones the RPG points out as being the main primary and secondary languages they are more likely to learn.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 05:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Well I am not sure then. This wasn't the race infobox but it was in the Languages of Azeroth infobox in two different sources. What I found said that some languages are "restricted". That is why the RPG put it in there so that you know the "typical speaker" of Eredun are Demons and a few corrupted orcs and the "typical speaker" of Draconic are Dragons and a few night elves. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 06:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::That thing is more of a suggestion box anyways. The real detailed language stuff in in the individual race pages.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 06:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::::Oh okay. They made it sound so official with the whole "Languages of Azeroth" table they had in the RPGs. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 07:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::Well, its true info, it doesn't contradict anything, see [[cycle of Hatred]] (for corrupt erudun speaking orcs). Dragonsworn are often night elves, and they speak draconic. Its just that few, isn't as relevant as "most" of the race speaking the language. There are alot of languages that "few" of any race might speak :p... For example a "few" humans speak eredun as well (in Cycle of Hatred). But its a very minor detail in comparison.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 07:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+::::Oh okay. That is why I thought it would fit better in the language pages. Oh well a few isn't really significant anyways. I am sure there are a few human cult members that know Eredun out there also. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 09:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
+=== Template languages ===
+Putting "sure" languages down on the half-breed templates is somewhat questionable.
+:1. They are templates put on top of the main half-race. (half-orc, half-elf, half-ogre). Therefore the language may follow the main half-race's language, with minor change change of "primary language" if stated. But no changes to secondary languages. This is an very strong possibility I think.
+:2. there is the rule that racial blood follows certain racial skills of a certain race. This could include language skills, "possibly". This would assume that the secondary language skills change. But its not stated specifically.
+:3. Assumption that the language follows the "human" parent (for half-elven varients, and half-human half-ogre), or orc for the half-ogre magi... I think this third idea is the least likely.
+Now, I'd personally suggest probably just not touching on secondary languages unless we have a better idea, from an actual RPG player what the rules mean exactly in english. Since half-blood elves don't exactly exist yet, its a little less misleading. As we don't know how they will be exactly.
+But half-human half-ogres, and half-ogre magi which might exist presently its very misleading.
+[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
+:Okay. I just went with what the RPG said which was "if you want to play as a 'race name' then you should play it as a 'race name'" or sometimes the RPG says "if you want to play as a 'race name' then you should play it as a 'race name' with these skills different". For the half-human half-ogre, it says "a half-human half-ogre is considered a human and an ogre". For the half-ogre magi, it says "Half-ogres are considered ogres for spells and effects, however, and thus they qualify for the ogre mage template".  [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
+::The problem is the way those are worded it could be interpreted different ways. Languages have nothing to do with spells, and they aren't exactly "effects". Effects actually come from how a spell will work on the individual as far as I know. Nothing to do with languages. Again different half-ogres but all based on the main half-ogre rule system, but with slight changes to certain aspects of the rule.
+::Also a template is something put on top of another race. So half-ogre magi would be the regular half-ogre with half-ogre magi template put on top of it. Thus it would be a mix of both sets of rules. Kinda dangerous to interpret the non ability stuff like languages, when it could be the regular half-ogre language rules. The spells and effects are only going to be things affected by various spells and feats, I.E. combat abilities (as far as I understand the rules).
+::AS for half-human half-ogre, again its "special abilities and effects, that a half-ogre magi and half-ogres are considere a human and an ogre". This has nothign to do with the language, it has to do with how spells and combat abilities interact with the character if used on the character. Additionally the ogre mage template is an optional rule, "if the gm allows it". Which means not all half-ogre magi would have it.
+::The idea here is to try not to take the information out of context. It has a specific purposes for the RPG game mechanics, and has little to nothing to do with lore.
+::Honestly I'd say avoid touching the game mechanic portions of the sourcebooks, unless you have knowledge of what it means.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 17:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::Further, you missed the fact that even regular half elves, and half-ogves have a similar rule;
+::::"Elven Blood: For all special abilities and effects, a half-elf is considered both a high elf and a human." racial ability.
+::::"Mixed Blood: For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered both an ogre and an orc.
+:::It has nothing to do with languages section as you can see.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 17:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
+::::I think I will try to leave it alone like you said. I thought it meant language also, but I don't know enough about "effects", "racial ability", etc. since I don't actually "RPG". I like reading/knowing about it though. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+== Brann ==
+Quick note- when referring to something Brann is talking about, please refer to him as [[Brann Bronzebeard]] (full name ''and'' link). While most of our readership knows who he is, it flows better (OK, not quite the right term, but I hop you get the idea) this way. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 15:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
+:Yes I will do that. I got used to just calling him Brann too much. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+::You can keep doing it later in the paragraph or article, just check to see if he's mentioned earlier in the article. If he is, you can call him Brann or Bronzebeard without a link. If it's the first time, do the full one. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 02:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::Okay cool. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+== Source templates ==
+Avoid using more than one per article. They look rather unpressional stacked, or scattered throughout an article. Either use the multisource one, or use whichever is the primary source of information.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:53, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+:Ah, I didn't realize we had a multisource template. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+::Yes, but it needs a better icon to make it stand out.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 04:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+:::Is it new or did I just miss it? I have never seen this template before on pages. I have only seen the method I used where users have put in various templates to divide the page's information. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 05:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
+== Sorry to have to do this... ==
+You have been resorting to edit wars, removing cited information (maraudon) that was added from Lands of Conflict, etc. We have told you not to remove information if it is properly cited, and relevant. You have been given warnings... You choose to just ignore them and argue... I will not be argueing with you from now on, I will not have my time wasted. I'll just take actions. If you choose to argue, then you will be ignored. I even warned you about the purpose of the "minor settlement" section to which you ignored it and continued to remove the info.
+Due to the fact that you haven't been listening, then the next course of action is to put you on the next step after your previous punishment. I believe you were at one month ban previously. This will put you at the next option, the three month ban. Unless someone above me believes you diserve more.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 07:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+:Everything you said about me you have been doing for days now actually to me. You revert everything I did tonight, you removed cited material, you are constantly arguing even after I said I was not putting anything on WoWWiki about that subject, you are making up information not in the sources yet you ignore the sources when I put them, you are calling things minor settlements when in the RPG they are not called minor settlements or in some cases don't even give us a population number, you are taking some things under Settlements and Sites and ignoring the Sites half of it, you are attributing information that is speculation and saying it is from the sources, you ignored at least 5 RPGs and counting of sources, and dozens of other examples. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 09:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+::Sorry Rolandius, but there are times where a user warned by admins multiple times on multiple actions either has to admit he is wrong, or comply to the "An admin's word is final" rule.
+::The community accepted to give you another chance, you didn't take it. Your loss I'm afraid. {{User:Adys/Sig}} 09:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::Read above. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 09:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+::::You read above. An admin's word is final - if you cannot accept everything else, that's all it comes down to.
+::::I suggest you don't troll your talk page before we remove you the right to edit it aswell. Good night. {{User:Adys/Sig}} 09:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::::No, I meant read my entry above. Those things I listed he did. This is my talk page which lets me respond so I am not sure what you mean. Who smiles when they ban someone? I guess it is a funny thing for him. If you look at my edits 90% are reverted by only one person. My Mentor page which was supposed to be me putting things and Sky seeing if they are revelent became a place for Baggins to find me and argue with me again. Makes you think. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 09:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+::Don't mix up removal of info due to "relevancy" issues as removing cited info. If you had taken the time to create valid topics (not just some interpretation based on a random word in an article), or not put up disjointed info (random comment that doesn't fit into the flow of the subject), then they would likely stayed. However, you seemed to overlook an important point. We don't have to include every single reference to the subject, especially ones poorly paraphrased. Sometimes its better to just stick with the general overview of the topic being discussed. Its not about the quantity its about the quality. You can continue to argue, or make accusations about me based on your own fallacious arguements, but this may just lead to the permanent ban. I'm not going to play your games anymore...[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 10:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::I was given the go-ahead to make those pages. I didn't make them without consultation. All you do is talk about fallacious this and fallacious that. You are the one that decided to go on my Mentor page and argue with me as a admin even mentioned to you twice. I am not on your user page arguing with you. You are making up things about me. Here is an example that you put on the Violations List. "suggesting that one of his page ideas will be groundbreaking, only for it to be a minimal lore stub". What does that even mean? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 10:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::Giving the go ahead and breaking policies to do it still doesn't get you off the hook. Especially if its a bad quaity article, or misleading.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] ([[User talk:Baggins|talk]]) 10:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+I '''will not''' allow this without diffs. He is unblocked until such time you can reproduce them. '''Even if''' you can produce them, it will be after ''my'' judgment and not yours. While both you and I are involved in this, I believe that the blocking administrator should have been both ''uninvolved'' and not solicited without examples of diffs that '''were not''' taken out of context. We '''do not block''' for "bad quality article"s, we fix them. If he broke the rules, let's see where he did so. Rolandius is unblocked for now. I will also consider Adys involved here. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [http://www.wowhead.com/?user=Skyfire w]) 16:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+:Sky, those decisions have been discussed beforehand and taken without your consentement being required. Sorry to say, but for what I've seen you have not been doing a good job at mentoring. {{User:Adys/Sig}} 17:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
+::Why am I blocked for a year now? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::The admins are currently discussing it.  I apologize for the confusing, multifaceted way in which this situation is being handled.  --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 01:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
+::::Okay. I was just wondering because I just logged on and saw that I was unbanned, rebanned, and banned for an extra year all in the span of 12 hours while I was offline. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::Rolandius has been unblocked and changed to a "suspect" in [[WW:V]]. Please put explanations with diffs (besides the [http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Maraudon&diff=1621454&oldid=1621437 Maraudon edit] which I'm aware of) for blocking Rolandius on [[User talk:Fandyllic|my talk page]]. Requests to discuss on IRC are not acceptable. If I do not see any explanations, I will keep unblocking Rolandius. Unlike most admins, ''my consent is required'' ([[WoWWiki:Bureaucrats|bureaucrat]] &gt; [[WoWWiki:Administrators|sysop]]) and I will only defer to [[User:Kirkburn|Kirkburn]] or Wikia personnel. I agree with Sky and I don't want to see any subgroup of admins trying to enforce blocks that resemble actions based on personal grudges more than a reasoned approach and benefit of the doubt. Most of the reasons for ban/block are generally petty.
+:::Up to now, I've tried to give various parties (Baggins, Adys and Pcj, mostly) the benefit of the doubt. If I seem to be giving Rolandius special treatment, I am, because I think WoWWiki would be much worse off with him perma-banned than restrained.
+:::On the other side of the coin, Rolandius has made some serious [http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Maraudon&diff=1621454&oldid=1621437 errors in judgement]. However, he has also been subjected to far more [[User:Rolandius/Mentor‎|oversight and restriction]] than any other user who has contributed so much to WoWWiki.
+:::For now various parties need to go to their respective corners and "cool off" for a bit (this means you too, Rolandius; please restrict changes to [[User:Rolandius/Mentor]] until this situation is settled). --[[File:gengar orange 22x22.png]]&nbsp;[[User:Fandyllic|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Fandyllic</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Fandyllic|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Fandyllic|contr]])</small> 12:20 AM PST 6 Oct 2008
+:::: Thank you for letting us know in advance and discussing your actions with the admin team, Fandyllic. This is the most stupid and fucked up decision I've seen done by you.
+:::: I'm out of this affair, you guys sort it out yourselves. {{User:Adys/Sig}} 01:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+::::Fandy, the involved admins are discussing it. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 01:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::::You know you don't have to reblock me every day. I am not going to be editing these pages for awhile. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+Rolandius, I am sorry it is coming to this - but the situation you have placed us in, knowingly or unknowingly, is a problem. You aren't a "vandal" per se, but you are making some people's lives very difficult. If you have a problem with an admin - contact them, and possibly one other if they cannot help you. Do '''not''' email every admin hoping for a different answer. This pisses us off, and can get us annoyed at each other. We don't like that.
+Admins make decisions for the good of the wiki - you have to live with them. I have never in the life of this wiki seen anyone manage to stir up so much trouble in such a short period of time. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 02:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+:I haven't e-mailed every admin. I have talked to 1 or 2 admins. A lot of things are getting exagerrated over here. 1 or 2 admins is not "every" admin. Also, my e-mail is blocked on here so I couldn't really e-mail "every" admin even if I wanted to. If people have to exagerrate reasons to block me then I probably should not be blocked in the first place. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+:I see more was stuff was added to my violation list about Elwynn Forest. The sources do not give us information on Westridge's population. In fact, they don't even list it under Sites and Settlements in the Elwynn Forest section. It belongs under the "maps and subregions" section of the page not "minor settlements", unless some method has changed, seeing the examples of other pages. Also, there is high chance that Westridge is supposed to be in fact Westbrook Garrison. If you look at the LoC map, there is a Westridge G. on the map where Westbrook Garrison is currently. A change may have occured where Westridge G. on the map became Westbrook G. They did not edit the Westridge out of the source in time or in error, in which it was mentioned only twice anyways. This has occured before in lore with Westfall's various names for instance. This may have been the Westridge they meant in LoC since they mention Westridge having a good place to drink. Under the Elwynn Forest section, they mention Westbrook Garrison under Sites and Settlements, with a population, and the people having a great time drinking ale. Westridge=Westridge G.=Westbrook G. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+::Regarding "my e-mail is blocked on here so I couldn't really e-mail "every" admin even if I wanted to" ... look, we aren't stupid. That setting has not always been on, and I kept getting reports of you emailing people, and I'm not inclinded to disbelieve them because you say "I have talked to 1 or 2 admins". Indeed, Baggins turned it on you would stop pestering him, I have received emails from you, so has Fandyllic. That's more than two already. It stops now.
+::The infoboxes use RPG info. This does not mean they exclusively use RPG info. I cannot imagine how many times Baggins has tried to put this across. Edit warring with him over isn't going to help. {{User:Kirkburn/Sig4}} 02:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::Here is the truth. I have no idea what you heard but you should demand proof. I am talking about these past 2 weeks. This instance of banning and not in the last year. I have only e-mailed 1 or 2 admins. I am not talking about the last time I was banned or anything. I haven't emailed you in at least 1-2 months. Last time I e-mailed Baggins was 1-2 weeks ago during the week before I was even on WoWWiki yet from my last ban. We were talking about Warcraft II maps back then so I don't know where you got the "bothering Baggins" part from that or "turned on block e-mail due to lots of e-mail". Lots of exagerration from people it looks like. Instead of banning me and telling my cryptic replies, why doesn't someone just say "The infoboxes use RPG info. This does not mean they exclusively use RPG info." Instead I get that the infoboxes are based on the RPG. Then it changes to no it is not based on the RPG. Now it is based on the RPG but not exclusively. Of course that still does not explain how a settlement like Westridge that has no info on population or even on Westridge itself really gets turned into a minor settlement. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::I found my last e-mails to Baggins and yourself. Last time I e-mailed Baggins I believe was Sept. 24 and was a couple of days before I was even back from my last ban. So that would be 2 weeks ago. The last e-mail I sent you I believe was Aug. 25 and so that would be 7 weeks ago almost. I don't know how that is called "bothering" people with "lots of e-mails" or what that has to do with blocking my e-mail on here. I did not e-mail Baggins for almost 2 weeks before my e-mail on here was blocked so why would I e-mail him all of a sudden now? Also, I haven't e-mailed you in 7 weeks so why would I have to have my e-mail blocked if I am not even bothering anyone? I have only talked to 2 admins lately. Sky was my Mentor and we are supposed to be e-mailing each other about my Mentor page. So like I said I have talked to 1-2 admins recently and I have proof which it looks like my detractors do not. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
+::::I am a Suspect on the violation list yet I am still blocked. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 01:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
+::::If anyone wants to hear my side of the story or ask me questions I am here and with proof. I was led to believe that this Mentor page was something where Sky checks to see if my ideas were relevant or not. If they were relevant he said ok. If they weren't relevant he said nope. Suddenly it turned into a place for some people to argue with me and not help with something positive. If people would have watched the Mentor page and stopped it then this would never have happened. I don't know if anyone noticed but I was barely back from my last ban for about a week when I got banned again. Sort of quick don't you think? Also, Kirkburn you said "If you have a problem with an admin - contact them" which then turns into "Baggins turned it on you would stop pestering him" as if I have e-mailed every day for the past 2 weeks. Which one is it? If I am told to contact an admin and it is going to be used against me then why tell me to contact the admin in the first place? Regardless, if you read my post above I have stated when I last e-mailed Baggins and yourself in order for you to see that I was not recently bothering anyone and therefore no reasoning for him to block my e-mail on here. I am sure people on WoWWiki have e-mailed more than 2 admins if your counting the past 6 months. The core of the problem is that some people do not like anyone for any reason touching their edits no matter if they are correct or not. I touched some edits and then I was banned. A rule should be made that admins' edits may not be touched no matter if wrong or right so that someone else does not get banned in the future like I have been many times. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
+== Far Seer Corhuk? ==
+I think [[Farseer Corhuk]] is the correct name of this NPC. The name of the page should be the name of the NPC in the game. Some NPCs are named Far Seer while others are named Farseer. I am not sure if Farseers are the same as Far Seers in lore but the page should reflect the NPC's name which in this case is Farseer Corhuk. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
+== Notable Farseers ==
+Here are some notable [[Farseer]]s someone could add to the article. [[Farseer Corhuk]], [[Farseer Kurkush]], and [[Farseer Margadesh]]. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
+== Calender ==
+I think there should be a page made that has something to do with calenders/measure of time. I see some people wondering about dates on WoWWiki_talk:Warcraft_pump. As for calenders, we could put information about the calender used around the time of the First War, the calender used now, and the mysterious BTFT and ATFT dates used in Horatio Montgomery, M.D.'s memorial. We could also throw in the use of "Selune - Spring" in the Journal of Brann. I am not sure if the festivals that some people celebrate for the different seasons and times of the year would count as holidays or this page. Finally, we could put in the fact that dwarves did not always use the 24 hour clock once upon a time. They used a 30 hour day. Also, Ironforge does not run on a schedule like many cities due to it being underground, hence no sun. It is quite dark in Ironforge actually as they keep the lights dim. Ironforge runs, starting at midnight, on three 8 hour-shifts marked by a loud whistle. In the game, I believe they just use that hourly horn. A few exceptions to the shift schedule exist though like police. Although Ironforge runs all night and day, the work output is about the same as the other cities that use the schedule in which they are busy during the day and closed at night. As you can see the Alliance uses the sun as the mark between night and day. The Orcs use cycles to measure their years. They plan many things according to the cycle, from the timing of the naming of their children to measuring the time between a new moon and full moon. Alternatively, the information could just be added to any appropiate pages if possible. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 10:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
+== [[Template:Races]] ==
+I think the Mag'har are a seperate "race" and not just a faction akin to how high elves are a different "race" from blood elves or night elves. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
+== [[Skywing]] ==
+Skywing is technically a Parrot (Beast) and not an Arakkoa (Humanoid). [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 02:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
+== [[WW:MOS]] ==
+According to policy, some pages like [[General achievements]] should not have links in the bold of the article's lead sentence. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 03:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
+In addition, some pages like [[Plunder Isle]] should have the title of the article put in bold the first time it is mentioned. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
+== Welcome back. ==
+Upon review, the admins have decided to remove your ban and return you to the previous arrangement, with the following additional stipulations:
+#Sky2042 will be your only admin source of contact; the other admins will work with Sky if any problems arise or if Sky requests their help. All admins should be aware of this - if you encounter any problems, talk to Sky about it. This does not mean admins - or others - cannot edit your contributions appropriately; simply that no action should be taken against you without consulting Sky.
+#You will not create a new article under any circumstances, unless its format has already been approved by Sky.
+#You will discuss all major page edits with Sky.
+#You will not initiate blanket reformatting across several articles without discussion.
+#Any questions you ask on your mentor page will be given a plain answer.
+#These arrangements will be subject to review at the end of November, or at any time if we see them to not be working quite as intended.
+Please contact Sky with any questions.  Thank you for your patience. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 04:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
+:One small note. When I try to edit any kind of page like my userpage it says
+::Start of block: 21:26, 13 October 2008
+::Expiry of block: 21:26, 14 October 2008
+:and something about my IP address has been recently used by Rolandius which is myself. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
+::OK, should be fixed. --{{User:Pcj/sig}} 04:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
+:::Thanks Pcj. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[File:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 04:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)