Talk:Varimathras

Comments

Quest Timeline Considerations

1. Hmm, one of the most recent additions has got me thinking. It mentions that Varimathras has in his possession the books from RFC after an agent of the Horde delivered them to him. This prompts me to ask the question whether any big events really "happen" in WoW. There are world events, of course, but besides that the player doesn't have an impact on the world of the game since after all everything respawns for the next player. Therefore the books will always be dropped in RFC, Naralex will always be asleep in WC, Van Cleef will always be alive waiting for somebody to make introduce him to the business end of a sword, etc.
2. IOW, my question is should we who contribute to these entries write from the perspective of somebody looking back from the future and assume all the quests got completed? Or should we write as though nobody's completed any of them? The Mug'thol entry, for example, doesn't list him as dead. It merely states that he found the  [Crown of Will] and is now a free ogre again.--Illidan Rocks 08:16, 1 Feb 2006 (EST)
3. G C: What I'm thinking of doing right now is differntiating between the physical status and background of a quest NPC (for instance, writing their background and stating that they can be found in the Scarlet Monastery doing that and that, and waiting to be killed) and the Lore status (which states that the NPC has been killed by on the orders of such and such). The way I understand it, should Blizzard ever want to develop on any of these ideas (be it in a WoW expansion or in a separate game), it will naturally assume that all the quests affecting the game world are completed.
4. I think that a measure of dichotomy is inevitable if you're dealing with a quest-driven storyline in a MMORPG. However, I feel it is safe to assume that the game world as we know it is shaped by the mere existence of these quests, since existence implies completion. To use the Van Cleef example, it is probably reasonable to assume that the Defias quest to build a weapon of mass destruction has been foiled, since otherwise we'd be looking at a world event involving a wheeled battleship literally rolling over Stormwind!
5. Makes sense to me. I'd kinda like to see that world event, actually. :p --Illidan Rocks 08:46, 1 Feb 2006 (EST)

Varimathras + Balnazzar

I can't remember exactly where I heard this for the first time, but by now I've heard this idea thrown around numerous times: when demons die, they don't actually cease to exist, but simply transport back into the Twisting Nether. Unless, of course, someone goes through the trouble of ensuring the demon dies, such as using an artifact or some great spells or what have you.

That has been presented in the past as the explanation for why Varimathras would say he can't kill another Nathrezim, because he knows even if he does, Balnazzar will simply go back and wait to be re-summoned into the world.

--Wasted 06:13, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

Yah, I thought that when a Demon Dies, he just falls asleep and bleeds for a couple of days, then when he is assured he's safe, he comes back from the Dead, sort of like that one snake that I forgot its name. Thats why I also think that Tichondreus is alive. --Quinn' Tonster

He doesn't actually say, "I can't kill this guy." He says, "But, Lady, it is forbidden for one of the Nathrezim to kill another." So, it's most likely possible. Whether he actually did it or not is still up in the air.

On Tichondrious, he's definitely dead. To my knowledge, there's never been a case of a demon being resurrected in Warcraft. Sargeras doesn't quite count, because he's not a demon, and I wouldn't count Warcraft III hero resurrection since that's a game element and never really used in the plot. Also, Tichondrious was killed using the Skull of Gul'dan, a very powerful demonic artifact, so he didn't just trip and break his neck in a freak accident. Illidan decimated him. User:Montag/sig 13:00, 14 November 2006 (EST)

Varimathras Quotes

Not quite sure who is in charge of the upkeep of this Wiki, so I loathe to step on any toes by adding anything to the main pages without permission. But perhaps those in charge could make use of the following Quotes, spoken by Varimathras in World of Warcraft(if you go to the Royal Quarter and click on him):

"I'm Always On The Winning Side." <---exact quote.

"None Can Stand Before The Might Of A DreadLord."<---not an exact quote but it is very, very close, i'll come back with the exact verbiage after my game session tonight.

The actual quote is "You dare challenge the might of a dreadlord?!" --Angellic 11:27, 14 November 2006 (EST)

He may say that in W3, but I'm pretty sure in WoW it's "You think you can match the might of a dreadlord?" User:Montag/sig 12:29, 14 November 2006 (EST)

Another 'click' qoute of his in WoW is "How will this benefit me?" --Wormsborough 10:10, 29 December 2006 (EST)

He also says "Don't waste my time." Hordesupporter 19:51, 16 February 2007 (EST)

I Don't Like It

I don't like that thing that suggests that Varimathras has betrayed the Forsaken simply because it would have every racial capital having a major traitor, I should point out that the Ironforge traitor, is not a traitor perse, she was put under a spell, so the theroy of all capitals haveing a major traitor/defector falls short. Hordesupporter 14:07, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Also, Fandral isn't a traitor to his people by any means, just at odds with Tyrande- unlike some of the others, he's not going to open the gates of the city to their enemies. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 09:48, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Note that, although Varimathras is a demon, and therefore is very untrustworthy, if he in fact betrayed the Forsaken who could he ally himself with? He has commited treason against the Burning Legion, he would never be accepted into the alliance, the only reason he is allowed to be in the horde is due to his forsaken alligences, no way in hell would he be in the Scourge, and he likly wouldn't be accepted into any of the other factions on Azeroth (or outland for that matter). I'm kinda n00bish dealing with lore but I believe my statement was accurate. Hordesupporter 18:06, 19 February 2007 (EST)

Well, he could go to his brother with the Scarlet Crusade, I suppose, and the Shadow Council would take him if the betrayal was destructive enough. But everything you've said is true. Based on this, and the fact that Staghelm is not a traitor (well, he is, but only to Malfurion's ideals, an not to his race), I'm removing the statement. Addendum: Grimtotem is also not truely a traitor. Though she dislikes Cairne, she is not likely to betray Thunder Bluff to the Tauren's enemies. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:01, 19 February 2007 (EST)

You know... I put that in my comment but it just occured to me... Varimathras is only allowed in the Horde due to his Forsaken alligences right? Hordesupporter 13:35, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Of course. Even Sylvanas wouldn't have let him in if he didn't work for her. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:02, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Yeah, Sylvanas prob wasn't too sure if she should allow a demon into her army, of course Sylvanas and Varimathras are my two favorite warcraft characters, so it's nice to see them on the same side. Hordesupporter 20:54, 21 February 2007 (EST)

No, Sylvanas was probably pleased by his defection (because of the powers at his command), but just because she loves employing them doesn't mean she actually likes them. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:15, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Forsaken Loyalites

This page mentions there are some Forsaken who rever Sylvanas, and some to are loyal to Varimathras, this doesn't make any sense in my opinion, any Forsaken quest that mentions thw two makes it clear that their loyalty is to Sylvanas, granted, that may just be because the Forsaken player character is implied to be loyal to Sylvanas alone. Hordesupporter 13:48, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Sources

I never read or heard anything about "Forsaken who rever Sylvanas, and some to are loyal to Varimathras". Also it doesn't make much sense, what I see from Brill and Tarren Mill, everyone is loyal to Sylvanas. Also this "Kalasan the Forsaken Messenger"... Where did this come from? Sure it wasn't a fanfiction? It doesn't sound Blizzardesque at all. Do we have any sources? FieryAxel| 21:00, 10th April 2007 (EDT)

Pretty much all Forsaken view Sylvanas practically as an object of worship, and I have yet to see a single Forsaken perfer Varimathras over Sylvanas. Hordesupporter 15:13, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

You avoided my question, I'm asking about the sources and such. Although it sounds like you also question its creditability. FieryAxel| 20:13, 14th April 2007 (EDT)

If that information has a scource, i'm assumeing it came from the RPG. Hordesupporter 00:44, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Learn to click on the citations at the end of each paragraph, and you'll see where the information came from. They have been correctly cited. As for its "officialness" according to Blizzard the RPG is as official as any other source. You also have to consider that game scale is different than actual world and lore scale. Game scale is often limited by gameplay mechanics. In the "real" world there is alot more than 100 people living in Undercity, unlike in the game, and Undercity is alot larger than it can possibly be portrayed in the game...Baggins 01:05, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Varimathras's Plan?

I think that Varimathras gained a plan when he was pinned up, and that somehow, Balnazzar and Dethorac new. Varimathras is a demon, who are only loyal to the Legion or to a Warlock, and even Doomguards don't stay to loyal for long. Varimathras is most likely still serving the Legion. Here is why I believe it:

--Balnazzar, Alive--

Varimathras did attack his brother, but he wasn't dead. Scince we do not really know the code of the Dreadlords or Nathrazim, we do not know if it is just code that Dreadlords attacked by other Dreadlords come back. But, there is another factor... He could not have actually been killed. If Varimathras is still loyal to the Legion, then it was all an act that Sylvanas fell for.

--Balnazzar picking the Scarlet Crusade--

Balnazzar picked to hide ast the leader of the Scarlet Crusade. Now, most people think this is to take revenge on the Forsaken... or my possibility, it is for sacrificing. When the Legion comes back, and if Varimathras is loyal to the legion, it'll most likely be that Varimathras will get help from the Legion to reconquer the freed undead. Then, the Scarlet Crusade will be attacked and gained as new recruits.

--Varimathras's loyalists--

Like this one says, some Undead will actually loyally fallow the Legion under Varimathras.

--Apocitharies, Legionists themselves?--

The Apocitharies are a group of Forsaken created by Sylvanas to cause the new plague. But, are they still loyal? I read somewhere that the Apocitharies don't allow the others. But why? Well, my theory is that they are secretly legionists that are sending messages to the Legion to let them know when they can come...

--The New Plague--

The New Plague could be the opportunity for Varimathras and his fallowers to strike.

WC3 info

How about removing the Warcraft3 info at the bottom?

Why? Ellethwen 13:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)