# Talk:Improved Frostbolt

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## Coeffecients Edit

I was under the impression that spell damage coefficient reductions were multiplicative (in line with the 5% coefficient penalty for spells with secondary effects) and the coefficient increases from the various empowered talents were additive but applied after any deductions, thus making 5/5 imp and 5/5 emp frostbolt:

```[0.95 * 0.9 * (3/3.5)] + 0.1 = 83.286%
```

Applying the additive increase before the multiplicative deductions would give us:

```0.95 * 0.9 * [(3/3.5) + 0.1] = 81.846%
```

Is there a definitive answer because I was 100% certain that it was the first option but with the formulae that I'm seeing all over the site (most of which I've already changed and will change back if I need to) have left me second-guessing myself. Chentoka 02:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, those are correct. See Frostbolt. --Sky (t · c · w) 02:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I put the formulas in. I'm pretty confident in what it is, because I went out and tested it myself one day. I wish we had the math extension, because the formulas are hard to read, so I might have made a mistake. I'll go back and check it. My understanding is that Empowered Frostbolt is added first, then the Improved Frostbolt penalty is multiplied (after the addition). --Piu (?!) 03:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, here's what I found. Add empowered bonus first, then multiply the result by Improved penalty

Unindent for a moment. Let's simplify the base coefficient for frostbolt, (3.0/3.5)*.95 = 0.8142 (81.42%) a pretty well-known quantity from before BC.

Now, apply 5/5 Empowered:

```0.8142 + 0.1 = 0.9142   (91.42%)
```

And applying 5/5 Improved, multiplying after:

```(0.8142 + 0.1) * 0.9 = 0.8227  (82.27%)
```

And for mages that only take Improved:

```0.8142 * 0.9 = 0.7327  (73.27%)
```

This is what my ragged notes say (I'm surprised I can still read em). Some other mages have explored it. Here's one post in great depth on the Mage forums. He did a similar test to mine, and we got the same answer. [1] --Piu (?!) 04:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I see where you might have been confused. The 5% penalty for the snare is applied first, then the additive empowered bonus, then improved penalty. You have the 5% snare penalty affecting the empowered bonus, which is incorrect. --Piu (?!) 04:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The coefficient used to be: ( ( 3.0 / 3.5 ) * .95 ) * (1.0 - .02 * points in improved ) + (.02 * points in Empowered ) [2], now its the same skipping the part about being improved [3]

Already edited the main coefficient page to reflect the 2.3 numbers, going to edit this page now to retain the information for historical purposes. Zaldinar 04:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)