I bet she is gonna be in dalaranCormundo 05:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Not necessarily canon
- I’m sure this will be controversial, but I don’t necessarily consider her canonical, and based on that we haven't really had any plans of leveraging her in the future. Uh, I think she appeared in one of the rpg books, but you know she's just not a character I have thought about, so at this point I don't really know if we are going to do much with her.-Chris Metzen
So, apparently Metzen says she is not canon. [1] (part 2 video) --WarlockSoL (talk) 05:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- Saw that too. No clue how to treat this one. A note for starters. After that not sure.Warthok Talk Contribs 05:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- I think its interesting to note that she started out as Daelin's daughter back in Shadows & Light (which was the question that was asked, or rather flat out stated). But Alliance Player's guide actually started moving her away from that, with a retcon denying her legitamacy as being connected to the family. So the canon of her "being daelin's daughter" is questionable, but the character as a whole maybe not. But it really depends on what Metzen decides to do in the future. ...but he's sometimes cryptic about these things...and he has said that books (novels, etc are "mostly canon[2]", thus not completely) If she isn't really Daelin's daughter she really isn't that important in the scheme of things, and certainly not important enough to introduce her to the novels. So like he says "at this point I don't know if we will do much with her" makes logistical sense.Baggins (talk) 15:04, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
That's what I said. She's simply not important enough to use ever. Even Metzen said she wasn't that important and he would probably never use her again (later in the interview). I.E. he does say that he has no plans to use her at this time, and will probably never use her ever again. He could have stuck with just saying she was non-canon, but he had to qualify his comment with reasons why she "probably" won't be used again (not that its set in stone that she won't be used again). He qualified this statement by saying "at this point in time". In other words he stated he could still use her, if there was a reason to use her, but he has no plans to use her the forseeable future. One might argue though that by even giving her that much of a leeway sorta contradicts his first statement that he doesn't think she is canon, instead he reduced it down to something that equates to "less than canon". His statements are sorta wishy-washy on the issue.
Even his "I don't neccessarily consider her canonical..." comment is sort of wishy-washy and weak way of making the statment. If he thinks she is completely non-canon, then he just should have came out and bluntly said, "she's non-canon & doesn't exist" and left it at that. He didn't have to try to explain reasons why he won't use the character in forseeable future. Truly non-characters should not even be given the benefit of being possible future inclusions; to even argue the possiblity of an inclusion however remote, gives the character some form of legitamacy. Statements should be firm, otherwise one risks undermining their own stance.Baggins (talk) 01:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like denial. This is a joke. You're writing paragraphs to twist Metzen's words to make it sound like 'I don't necessarily consdier her canonical' to mean she's canonical. But you go ahead and get it into your head that Azeroth has leprechauns and chupacabras and whatever. Just don't ever expect to see them outside of Wowwiki. Ever. --Timolas (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, you should be firm in your statements because someone in denial could come up and twist them in a very convoluted way to support their personal beliefs, right? --Wulfang SoL (talk) 22:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Baggins, are you serious? He said "SHE IS NOT CANON". Clearly and fairly - SHE IS NOT CANON. What more you need? "Don't put her on WoWWiki"? Severin Andrews 22:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Removing the article simply isn't going to happen, nor should it. Like i said earlier i think the article should absolutley be updated to clearly state metzen's decision, but we can't simply deny the fact she was at one point canonical and exists(existed). Beyond that theres always archival reasons.Warthok Talk Contribs 23:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, I'm all for keeping a reference to her - I actually thought she was a pretty cool charcater - just don't pretend she's still canon when Metzen clearly said she isn't. --Wulfang SoL (talk) 23:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree more! Don't we have tags for this sort of thing (I think the articles about the "example" characters with Scourge templates in Manual of Monsters have them)? --Super Bhaal (talk) 23:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- The way the article is currently written is the way that it should be written. The quote by Metzen with no interpretations included. Sorry beyond that there will be no "deleting" of the article. Edit: I guess I didn't make it abundantly clear, I actually don't care if she isn't canon (i'm not denying that metzen doesn't necessarily consider her canonical). The reason I don't care that she isn't canon is that all intents and purposes she has been a worthless character, she has done absolutely nothing. She isn't even that interesting, and no one has ever really utilized her, except for a one off article, and Brann talking about her. I was just trying to point out there really isn't much reason to ever leverage her (though Metzen left that ever remote possibility open in the way he worded himself). Though I also was trying to point out that its a bit contradictory to even talk of possibilities of leveraging something you don't believe exists... Of course with retcons something non-canon can later be made canon & vice versa (he probably wanted to leave himself an out, if there was a need for such a character).Baggins (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not saying you should completely remove her - just tag her as it should be - as WoWRPG authors' fanfiction. Severin Andrews 15:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Being non-canonical does not make her fanfiction. She was still created legitimately. Fanfiction does not belong anywhere on lore articles, but this is not the case here. There is no tag for fanfiction on mainspace articles, fan fiction would be moved under the creator's username. The note added to the bottom is sufficent.Warthok Talk Contribs 16:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not saying you should completely remove her - just tag her as it should be - as WoWRPG authors' fanfiction. Severin Andrews 15:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- The way the article is currently written is the way that it should be written. The quote by Metzen with no interpretations included. Sorry beyond that there will be no "deleting" of the article. Edit: I guess I didn't make it abundantly clear, I actually don't care if she isn't canon (i'm not denying that metzen doesn't necessarily consider her canonical). The reason I don't care that she isn't canon is that all intents and purposes she has been a worthless character, she has done absolutely nothing. She isn't even that interesting, and no one has ever really utilized her, except for a one off article, and Brann talking about her. I was just trying to point out there really isn't much reason to ever leverage her (though Metzen left that ever remote possibility open in the way he worded himself). Though I also was trying to point out that its a bit contradictory to even talk of possibilities of leveraging something you don't believe exists... Of course with retcons something non-canon can later be made canon & vice versa (he probably wanted to leave himself an out, if there was a need for such a character).Baggins (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Arbitrary Adminy Ruling
- Right. Here's what's going to happen: 1) Article remains as is, possibly with a disclaimer at the top, and with Metzen's quote titled something other than "notes". 2) All mention of the Goldenswords will be removed from the Proudmoores' infoboxes.
- Finnall is not fanfiction, she is a canonical character whom the lore team has no interest in exploring, and who will probably be retconned out if anyone cares enough to do so. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, he said she's not "necessarily" canon. That's rather different then NOT canon, and it certainly does not mean that she is the"WoWRPG authors' fanfiction". He also said that she wasn't a character he had thought about, not a character that he was cutting. Now, this means two things: 1) the character isn't canon or 2) the character is canon, but simply has no further role to play in the story beyond existing. Metzen's comments indicate, to my mind, 2), but that we shouldn't be surprised if 1) happens eventually. We're not deleting the article, and we're not doing anything besides posting the comment and removing her from the infoboxes.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- "People, let us go back to the original topic for a while. I've just been to WoWWiki and Baggins says that, through is interpretation of Metzen's words, Finnall isn't necessarily non-canon. Read his stupidity here. Now comment."-Wulfgang,
- "Predictable. We all knew that was what would happen. What an idiot" - Timolas
- "Whatever he is, it seems like a live assault on Baggins right now." - Xarthat
- "Not worth it, he'll make up some crap why it's still canon. Or he'll say only she isn't canon and everything else is."-Warlock
- "Hah, fuck...oh well, at least there´s still the very small possibility of her appearing in the future, i have a soft spot for her, don´t really know why." - Vicious[3][4][5]
Nice try, but no where did I state that Finnal is "canon", nor did I sate that all things are canon, infact I even brought up another interview were Metzen pointed out that things in books (novels, etc, aren't all necessarily canon). "Ya, the novels are pretty much considered canon, um, the funny thing is some things are less canon, we shoot for canon...typically the characters in novels are canon..."[6] But nice of you to try to twist my words. I bring up Vicious because he was the only one that even noticed what Ragestorm and I noticed about his comment, yet you didn't attack him. I think I'll let your own hypocracy and the fact that you feel you have to resort to ad hominem attacks (& other logical fallacies) show you for the kind of people you really are.
BTW, SoL Parody is hilarious.Baggins (talk) 04:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)