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== Old discussion ==
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==Ghoullord==
 
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{{Npcbox
 
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|image = IconLarge Worgen Male.gif
 
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|name = Ghoullord
 
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|title = Ambassador><br><Assistant Professor><br><Assosciate Professor><br><the Argent Champion><br><Bloodsail Admiral><br><Brewmaster><br><of Darnassus><br><Elder><br><the Explorer><br><of Gnomeregan><br><the Hallowed><br><the Love Fool><br><Jenkins><br><Merrymaker><br><of the Nightfall><br><the Patient><br><Pilgrim><br>the Seeker><br><of Stormwind
 
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|gender = Male
 
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|races = [[Worgen]] (Previously [[Human]])
 
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|level = 85
 
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|character = [[Death Knight]]
 
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|affiliation = [[Alliance]] ([[Stormwind]], [[Ironforge]], [[Darnassus]], [[Gnomeregan]], [[Exodar]], [[Gilneas]]), [[Argent Dawn]], [[Cenarion Expedition]], [[Wyrmrest Accord]], [[The Sons of Hodir]], [[Argent Crusade]], [[Alliance Vanguard]] ([[Valiance Expedition]], [[The Silver Covenant]]), [[Baradin's Wardens]]
 
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|faction = Alliance
 
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|location = [[Highbank]], [[Twilight Highlands]]<br>[[Mage Quarter]], [[Stormwind City]]<br>[[Acherus: The Ebon Hold]], [[Eastern Plaguelands]]
 
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|status = Alive
 
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|health = 107,397
 
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|aggro = {{Aggro|1|-1}}
 
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}}
 
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===General (41/66)===
 
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67 Mounts<br>95 Pets<br>20 Tabards
 
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===Quests (80/113)===
 
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3000+ Quests<br>Loremaster of Eastern Kingdoms, Cataclysm
 
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===Exploration (78/80)===
 
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World Explorer<br>1 Outland Rare<br>2 Northrend Rares
 
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===Player vs. Player (68/226)===
 
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4,373 Honorable Kills
 
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===Dungeons & Raids (155/522)===
 
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Class Dungeonmaster<br>Classic Raider<br>Outland Dungeonmaster<br>Outland Dungeon Hero<br>Northrend Dungeonmaster<br>Northrend Dungeon Hero<br>Looking for Multitudes
 
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===Professions (47/107)===
 
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322 Tailoring<br>302 Engineering<br>525 First Aid<br>525 Archaeology<br>282 Fishing<br>388 Cooking
 
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===Reputation (13/52)===
 
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15 Exalted Factions
 
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===World Events (90/141)===
 
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To Honor One's Elders<br>Fool For Love<br>Brewmaster<br>Hallowed Be Thy Name<br>Pilgrim<br>Merrymaker
 
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===Feats of Strength===
 
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Operation: Gnomeregan<br>50 Stone Keeper's Shards<br>100 Stone Keeper's Shards<br>Avast Ye, Admiral!<br>Green Brewfest Stein<br>The Horseman's Reins<br>Zul'Gurub<br>WoW's 6th Anniversary
 
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==Alts==
 
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{{Npcbox
 
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|image = IconLarge Goblin Male.gif
 
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|name = Goldtrap
 
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|gender = Male
 
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|races = [[Goblin]]
 
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|level = 53
 
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|character = [[Hunter]]
 
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|affiliation = [[Horde]]
 
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|faction = Horde
 
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|location = [[Goblin Slums]], [[Orgrimmar]]
 
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|status = Alive
 
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|health = 3,100
 
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|aggro = {{Aggro|-1|1}}
 
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}}
 
   
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Its an interesting note that the RPG distinguishes between Ancients(capitalization), and ancients(non-capitalization) to differentiate between the "demi-gods" and the "trees".[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 11:27, 10 November 2006 (EST)
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{{Npcbox
 
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|image = IconLarge NightElf Male.gif
 
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|name = Dendrophobia
 
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|gender = Male
 
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|races = [[Night Elf]]
 
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|level = 11
 
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|character = [[Druid]]
 
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|affiliation = [[Alliance]]
 
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|faction = Alliance
 
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|location = [[Lor'danel]], [[Darkshore]]
 
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|status = Alive
 
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|health = 254
 
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|aggro = {{Aggro|1|-1}}
 
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}}
 
   
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:Is it really true that the Alliance Player's Guide distinguishes them by capitalization? We are basing a lot off of that.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 06:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
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{{Npcbox
 
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|image = IconLarge Gnome Male.gif
 
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== Language ==
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|name = Frozenstaff
 
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|gender = Male
 
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Don't Ancients have their own language? I think this was mentoined in War of the Ancients. --[[User:Ramming pure|Ramming pure]] 07:43, 18 March 2007 (EDT)
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|races = [[Gnome]]
 
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|level = 55
 
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:If so we need to add the information to the article, with the citations. The currently listed languages are the ones that the RPG says they speak.[[User:Baggins|Baggins]] 03:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
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|character = [[Mage]]
 
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|affiliation = [[Alliance]]
 
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::Yes I read the book and it does say something about that on page 262. "The demigod — Cenarius — he taught you to speak with the trees, to cast such spells?" This is Rhonin speaking to Malfurion who could understand the language. As for the language they don't mention even what the trees say just that "The leaves of the trees began to rustle even though Rhonin could feel no wind". [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] ([[User talk:Rolandius|talk]]) 12:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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|faction = Alliance
 
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|location = [[Mage Quarter]], [[Stormwind City]]<br>[[The Mystic Ward]], [[Ironforge]]
 
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:::Err... I think they're speaking figuratively. Malfurion and other druids are communicating via their empathy for the land. Remember that Furion has also been seen "talking" to animals, stones, and the weather. I'm not saying that trees and such don't have their own language (depending on your definition), just that that sentence isn't really evidence of such.
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|status = Alive
 
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:::I think we've already discussed that Ancients probably speak in humanoid languages, just slower and more Entish. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 12:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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|health = 2,320
 
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|mana = 5,043
 
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== Split? ==
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|aggro = {{Aggro|1|-1}}
 
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This article is the explanation for what should be placed in [[:Category:Ancients]], but it's very ambiguous to me. Do [[Ironbark Protector]] and [[Agamaggan]] really belong in the same category? I would make the category refer only to the tree-like ancients and put all the famous Ancients in [[:category:Demigods]], but then where should [[fox]] and [[stick bug]] go? Looking for advice from those more familiar with lore on what this category should contain. -- {{User:Mordsith/Sig}} 21:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
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}}
 
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:The fox and stick bug would be be demigods, too, by that split. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 21:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
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::Ok, thanks. Then unless there's any dissent, when I get back around to this category I'm going to clarify that it's for the tree-like ancients and move all of the Ancients to [[:Category:Demigods]]. -- {{User:Mordsith/Sig}} 21:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
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:::That sounds acceptable to me. --[[User:Ragestorm|<span style="border-bottom:1px dotted; cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Ragestorm|talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Ragestorm|contr]])</small> 21:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
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::::So are we going to split this article? Something like "Ancients (race)" and "Ancients (demigods)"? [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
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:::::No. To be honest the article is fine as it is. --{{User:Gourra/Sig2}} 13:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
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::::::With a little "cleanup" I think it looks okay now. [[User:Rolandius|Rolandius]] [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] <small>([[User talk:Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Talk">talk</span>]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rolandius|<span title="Rolandius's Contributions">contr</span>]])</small> 13:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
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:::::::Bringing this up again, is the split still a no go?--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 22:18, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
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== Sethria ==
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Ashbear, what is your reasoning for [http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?title=Ancient_Guardian&action=historysubmit&diff=2737653&oldid=2737631 this edit]? You say that just because Sethria keeps Aviana's egg that it doesn't make her a dark version of Aviana, while I say that she is a "Dark Ancient", just not one made from scratch. The ''implication'' is that she is the dark ancient. My citation, like the others, is her entire quest chain. She is the primary target of the quest chain, and no other being is ever mentioned. In [[Quest:A Bird in Hand]], Marion Wormwing calls Sethria "She of the skies, but also of darkness." and says that "Sethria will soon be the master of the skies". In [[Quest:A Prayer and a Wing]], Vision of Sethria says "Soon we will possess the skies." Why does she need citation, and the other do not? Because her nature is slightly different? Also, why did you remove the land-sea-air thing?--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 04:08, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:There's nothing in that entire quest chain, at all, that even remotely implies that Sethria is anything other than a twilight dragon. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::I think there is. Perhaps she was just going to rule the skies in Aviana's absence, but the implication is there. If not, then what Twilight ancient(s) would give then power over the sky?--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 04:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::I read all of those as simple references to her being a very powerful twilight broodmother. Their power over the sky would be a result of their possession of the twilight dragonflight as well as the removal of Aviana as a potential threat to their presence. It also seems likely that they intended to corrupt Aviana somehow. Either way, the other dark ancients were created from the ancients themselves, while I saw nothing to suggest that Sethria's birth was any different from the rest of her flight. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::Her nature is clearly different then the others, yet her goal was clearly to replace Aviana. Perhaps she needed the egg to empower herself, along with finishing off Aviana. In [[Quest:Finish Nemesis]], it is said that "Twilight's Hammer dreamed of creating their own pantheon of twisted ancients to rule over the land, sea, and air." Lycanthoth is clearly land-based. Nemesis is made of magma and should not be in water, but Tortolla and his children are shown swimming and being fine underwater, making Nemesis sea-based. As the focus of the quest chains was saving three Ancients, it is reasonable to think that Aviana would have an air-based counterpart. That role is filled by Sethria, even if there is nothing distinctly air-based about her, beyond that she can fly. What sets Ancients apart anyway? Perhaps the "Dark Ancient" label does not exist at all.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 04:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::I agree with dark, Lycanthoth and Nemesis are said to be made from goldrinn and tortolla and dark powers, Sethria is just a twilight dragon, whetever she was going to become something later she did not become it, and after she's killed she's called just a minor dragon--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160#top|talk]]) 14:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::And Sethria contrary to Lycanthoth and Nemesiss looks nothing like the one made from--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160#top|talk]]) 14:42, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::::I think that she was planning to become the new air Ancient, and that not including her on the list would make it incomplete.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 17:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::It's possible she needed the egg to create a dark ancient, not become one herself, since they need a piece of the original ancient to do so. {{User:Coobra/Sig4}} 20:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::::::Lycanthoth and Nemesis are explicitly stated in quest text as being twisted gods summoned by the Twilight's Hammer. Sehtria, meanwhile, is only ever said to be a dragon (Thisalee Crow at one point even calls her a ''minor'' dragon). Marion Wormwing even calls her "Brood of the Earth Warden," which seems pretty clear. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 20:15, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::::The other two dark Ancients did not have a direct superior. Sethria claims that she will be the master of the skies, not that she will make a master that she controls. Yes, she is a minor twilight dragon, but then where is the evil bird Ancient? Even a mention of such intent?--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 20:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::::::::There isn't one. They may have intended to use Aviana's egg to create one, but it never happened. The fact that Aviana was dead (unlike Tortolla and Goldrinn) might also have something to do with it. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 20:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::::::Then why not allude to such a summoning ritual? Sethria seems fairly intent on having the role herself. Also, I think Goldrinn was dead, but in the Emerald Dream. Aviana was in a similar situation, and her egg was key to her resurrection. The Twilight's Hammer repressed them both.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 20:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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Even if she intended, she did not become one, while Lycanthoth and Nemesis were already "dark" Ancients since the beginning, and even if sethria intended to take that role and power she failed to get what she needed, the egg, so no i don't think she was a "dark" ancient.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:She could be marked as the ''intended'' air ancient, for completeness.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 20:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::You keep insisting she be on this page for "completeness," yet I don't see why there has to be an "air ancient" at all. There's no suggestion whatsoever that there was or would have been one; the only Dark Ancients that are ever mentioned are Nemesis and Tortolla, so I don't see why you're so adamant that there must be a third. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 20:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::I think he's talking about this "Twilight's Hammer dreamed of creating their own pantheon of twisted ancients to rule over the land, sea, and air." but i think that was just a generic "they will try to rule us all" rather than they only intended to make only three, the feeling i get when reading the quests is that they eventually intended to replace everyone of the ancients, and not just 3.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::Sure, they dreamed of it. But without any references to Sethria being or potentially becoming a dark ancient, claiming she is would be pure speculation and I don't see why it should be listed on this page. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 21:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::Exactly, if nobody has problems with it anymore i'll remove it in the next hour.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 21:13, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::::Sethria claims that she would take the role of Aviana. Even if she never got any special powers, the intent should be noted, or at least the lack of an air ancient should be noted. I do not think that the aforementioned statement was just a generic "they will try to rule us all" statement. I really think that they only intended to make three, as the other two match land and sea (even if on fire).--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 02:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::Well my opinion differs, so we'll have to agree that we disagree, and leave it to the majority, which for now is "Sethria is not a dark ancient".<small>—The preceding [[Wowpedia:Signature|unsigned]] comment was added by {{User|Ashbear160}}.</small>
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::::::::I don't care that we disagree, I only care about what makes it on the page. The "majority" is Dark T Zeratul. I will accept that Sethria is not a dark ancient, but I still feel that she was trying to be, and should be listed, based on the implication that there was going to be three.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 17:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::::I disagree entirely; with no specific mention of an "air ancient," or any dark ancient in relation to Aviana, the implication is so vague as to be more like speculation. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 20:39, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::::I also disagree they said that the twilight hammer had the dream of creating a pantheon that could control the seas the land and the sky, it never specified a number, and Sethria doesn't fit the definition that the other two dark ancients set.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 20:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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::::::::::I'll concede that it can be interpreted that they intended to create more dark ancients, and that there was not a dark version of Aviana, but while that may be a noteworthy addition I don't see any reason to mention Sethria in connection with it. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 20:57, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::::::::::I will agree to the current wording.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 21:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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==Vashj'ir Ancients==
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As far as i know they are called demigods and not ancients, there are sources but unfortunately i can't check them, can anybody tell me what those sources say?--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 13:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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:I am not lying or wrong here. Unlike the Sethria thing, both are identified by the word "ancient". It is gossip text. Wowhead does not copy that. Several quests by [[Erunak Stonespeaker]] at Promontory Point also mention L'ghorek's ancient status. If you have no way of checking, then why doubt it so much? Phasing would make getting a screenshot hard.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 17:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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::I just want to confirm it nothing else, i heard it being called demigod never ancients, i'll you believe anyway.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 19:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
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:Coming from here: [[User talk:Lon-ami#Proper source for Vashj'ir demigods]]
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:They aren't mentioned as "Ancients" (upper case) anywhere, so they don't match the definition. Feel free to revert the change if you find any mention of him as "Ancients" or "Ancient Guardians".--[[User:Lon-ami|Lon-ami]] ([[User talk:Lon-ami|talk]]) 15:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
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::I wish we had screenshots that would be far more easier.--[[User:Ashbear160|Ashbear160]] ([[User talk:Ashbear160|talk]]) 15:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
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==Elune is a ancient==
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The only source i found on wowpedia is ^ Arthaus. Shadows & Light, 67. ISBN 9781588469731.

Revision as of 15:27, 29 June 2011

Old discussion

Its an interesting note that the RPG distinguishes between Ancients(capitalization), and ancients(non-capitalization) to differentiate between the "demi-gods" and the "trees".Baggins 11:27, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Is it really true that the Alliance Player's Guide distinguishes them by capitalization? We are basing a lot off of that.--SWM2448 06:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Language

Don't Ancients have their own language? I think this was mentoined in War of the Ancients. --Ramming pure 07:43, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

If so we need to add the information to the article, with the citations. The currently listed languages are the ones that the RPG says they speak.Baggins 03:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes I read the book and it does say something about that on page 262. "The demigod — Cenarius — he taught you to speak with the trees, to cast such spells?" This is Rhonin speaking to Malfurion who could understand the language. As for the language they don't mention even what the trees say just that "The leaves of the trees began to rustle even though Rhonin could feel no wind". Rolandius (talk) 12:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Err... I think they're speaking figuratively. Malfurion and other druids are communicating via their empathy for the land. Remember that Furion has also been seen "talking" to animals, stones, and the weather. I'm not saying that trees and such don't have their own language (depending on your definition), just that that sentence isn't really evidence of such.
I think we've already discussed that Ancients probably speak in humanoid languages, just slower and more Entish. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Split?

This article is the explanation for what should be placed in Category:Ancients, but it's very ambiguous to me. Do Ironbark Protector and Agamaggan really belong in the same category? I would make the category refer only to the tree-like ancients and put all the famous Ancients in category:Demigods, but then where should fox and stick bug go? Looking for advice from those more familiar with lore on what this category should contain. -- Mordsith - (talk|contr) 21:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The fox and stick bug would be be demigods, too, by that split. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Then unless there's any dissent, when I get back around to this category I'm going to clarify that it's for the tree-like ancients and move all of the Ancients to Category:Demigods. -- Mordsith - (talk|contr) 21:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
That sounds acceptable to me. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
So are we going to split this article? Something like "Ancients (race)" and "Ancients (demigods)"? Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
No. To be honest the article is fine as it is. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
With a little "cleanup" I think it looks okay now. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 13:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Bringing this up again, is the split still a no go?--SWM2448 22:18, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Sethria

Ashbear, what is your reasoning for this edit? You say that just because Sethria keeps Aviana's egg that it doesn't make her a dark version of Aviana, while I say that she is a "Dark Ancient", just not one made from scratch. The implication is that she is the dark ancient. My citation, like the others, is her entire quest chain. She is the primary target of the quest chain, and no other being is ever mentioned. In Quest:A Bird in Hand, Marion Wormwing calls Sethria "She of the skies, but also of darkness." and says that "Sethria will soon be the master of the skies". In Quest:A Prayer and a Wing, Vision of Sethria says "Soon we will possess the skies." Why does she need citation, and the other do not? Because her nature is slightly different? Also, why did you remove the land-sea-air thing?--SWM2448 04:08, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing in that entire quest chain, at all, that even remotely implies that Sethria is anything other than a twilight dragon. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I think there is. Perhaps she was just going to rule the skies in Aviana's absence, but the implication is there. If not, then what Twilight ancient(s) would give then power over the sky?--SWM2448 04:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I read all of those as simple references to her being a very powerful twilight broodmother. Their power over the sky would be a result of their possession of the twilight dragonflight as well as the removal of Aviana as a potential threat to their presence. It also seems likely that they intended to corrupt Aviana somehow. Either way, the other dark ancients were created from the ancients themselves, while I saw nothing to suggest that Sethria's birth was any different from the rest of her flight. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Her nature is clearly different then the others, yet her goal was clearly to replace Aviana. Perhaps she needed the egg to empower herself, along with finishing off Aviana. In Quest:Finish Nemesis, it is said that "Twilight's Hammer dreamed of creating their own pantheon of twisted ancients to rule over the land, sea, and air." Lycanthoth is clearly land-based. Nemesis is made of magma and should not be in water, but Tortolla and his children are shown swimming and being fine underwater, making Nemesis sea-based. As the focus of the quest chains was saving three Ancients, it is reasonable to think that Aviana would have an air-based counterpart. That role is filled by Sethria, even if there is nothing distinctly air-based about her, beyond that she can fly. What sets Ancients apart anyway? Perhaps the "Dark Ancient" label does not exist at all.--SWM2448 04:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with dark, Lycanthoth and Nemesis are said to be made from goldrinn and tortolla and dark powers, Sethria is just a twilight dragon, whetever she was going to become something later she did not become it, and after she's killed she's called just a minor dragon--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
And Sethria contrary to Lycanthoth and Nemesiss looks nothing like the one made from--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:42, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I think that she was planning to become the new air Ancient, and that not including her on the list would make it incomplete.--SWM2448 17:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
It's possible she needed the egg to create a dark ancient, not become one herself, since they need a piece of the original ancient to do so. SnakeSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3For Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 20:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Lycanthoth and Nemesis are explicitly stated in quest text as being twisted gods summoned by the Twilight's Hammer. Sehtria, meanwhile, is only ever said to be a dragon (Thisalee Crow at one point even calls her a minor dragon). Marion Wormwing even calls her "Brood of the Earth Warden," which seems pretty clear. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:15, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The other two dark Ancients did not have a direct superior. Sethria claims that she will be the master of the skies, not that she will make a master that she controls. Yes, she is a minor twilight dragon, but then where is the evil bird Ancient? Even a mention of such intent?--SWM2448 20:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
There isn't one. They may have intended to use Aviana's egg to create one, but it never happened. The fact that Aviana was dead (unlike Tortolla and Goldrinn) might also have something to do with it. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Then why not allude to such a summoning ritual? Sethria seems fairly intent on having the role herself. Also, I think Goldrinn was dead, but in the Emerald Dream. Aviana was in a similar situation, and her egg was key to her resurrection. The Twilight's Hammer repressed them both.--SWM2448 20:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Even if she intended, she did not become one, while Lycanthoth and Nemesis were already "dark" Ancients since the beginning, and even if sethria intended to take that role and power she failed to get what she needed, the egg, so no i don't think she was a "dark" ancient.--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

She could be marked as the intended air ancient, for completeness.--SWM2448 20:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
You keep insisting she be on this page for "completeness," yet I don't see why there has to be an "air ancient" at all. There's no suggestion whatsoever that there was or would have been one; the only Dark Ancients that are ever mentioned are Nemesis and Tortolla, so I don't see why you're so adamant that there must be a third. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I think he's talking about this "Twilight's Hammer dreamed of creating their own pantheon of twisted ancients to rule over the land, sea, and air." but i think that was just a generic "they will try to rule us all" rather than they only intended to make only three, the feeling i get when reading the quests is that they eventually intended to replace everyone of the ancients, and not just 3.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Sure, they dreamed of it. But without any references to Sethria being or potentially becoming a dark ancient, claiming she is would be pure speculation and I don't see why it should be listed on this page. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, if nobody has problems with it anymore i'll remove it in the next hour.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:13, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Sethria claims that she would take the role of Aviana. Even if she never got any special powers, the intent should be noted, or at least the lack of an air ancient should be noted. I do not think that the aforementioned statement was just a generic "they will try to rule us all" statement. I really think that they only intended to make three, as the other two match land and sea (even if on fire).--SWM2448 02:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Well my opinion differs, so we'll have to agree that we disagree, and leave it to the majority, which for now is "Sethria is not a dark ancient".—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ashbear160 (talk · contr).
I don't care that we disagree, I only care about what makes it on the page. The "majority" is Dark T Zeratul. I will accept that Sethria is not a dark ancient, but I still feel that she was trying to be, and should be listed, based on the implication that there was going to be three.--SWM2448 17:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I disagree entirely; with no specific mention of an "air ancient," or any dark ancient in relation to Aviana, the implication is so vague as to be more like speculation. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I also disagree they said that the twilight hammer had the dream of creating a pantheon that could control the seas the land and the sky, it never specified a number, and Sethria doesn't fit the definition that the other two dark ancients set.--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I'll concede that it can be interpreted that they intended to create more dark ancients, and that there was not a dark version of Aviana, but while that may be a noteworthy addition I don't see any reason to mention Sethria in connection with it. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:57, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I will agree to the current wording.--SWM2448 21:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Vashj'ir Ancients

As far as i know they are called demigods and not ancients, there are sources but unfortunately i can't check them, can anybody tell me what those sources say?--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I am not lying or wrong here. Unlike the Sethria thing, both are identified by the word "ancient". It is gossip text. Wowhead does not copy that. Several quests by Erunak Stonespeaker at Promontory Point also mention L'ghorek's ancient status. If you have no way of checking, then why doubt it so much? Phasing would make getting a screenshot hard.--SWM2448 17:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I just want to confirm it nothing else, i heard it being called demigod never ancients, i'll you believe anyway.--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Coming from here: User talk:Lon-ami#Proper source for Vashj'ir demigods
They aren't mentioned as "Ancients" (upper case) anywhere, so they don't match the definition. Feel free to revert the change if you find any mention of him as "Ancients" or "Ancient Guardians".--Lon-ami (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I wish we had screenshots that would be far more easier.--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Elune is a ancient

The only source i found on wowpedia is ^ Arthaus. Shadows & Light, 67. ISBN 9781588469731.