User:Luccenzo/Shadow Hunter Aru'mon

Is there any significant reason that we can't merge this page with Ragnok? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:54, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Are they one and the same? Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:15, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Well, one is an old Horde death knight in Outland named Ragnok, and the other is an old Horde death knight in Outland named Ragnok Bloodreaver. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:23, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good enough for me for a merge. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:33, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Dark T, it's the same old problem as Talk:Anya_Eversong... Or Akinos... Or Samuro. You know it... --N'Nanz (talk) 13:03, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

My reasoning still stands. And if it's "good enough" here, why isn't it "good enough" there? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Because Ragnok is not an RPG character, is not a Warcraft III hero, is not an NPC, and (I hope based on the certain attitude of the people here) will likely be confirmed in some way to be the same character in both books. I think that the two death knights are one and the same, but the other ones not so much.--SWM2448 17:10, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

it's "good enough" for Coobra that has not followed the issue yet, it's not "good enough here"... --N'Nanz (talk) 19:34, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

It't not specualation to say that they are the same - it is speculation to say that they are not ;-) --LemonBaby (talk) 16:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it's pretty clear they're giving him a last name, not creating a brand new character with the same name, race, and class as the old one. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:57, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Just for the record, were the two characters' actions ever connected?--SWM2448 19:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, Ragnok (no last name given) appeared in the Beyond the Dark Portal novel, and survived the events. Ragnok Bloodreaver later appeared in the Dragons of Outland manga, which takes place shortly before the Burning Crusade. So no, since the two publications are about time periods twenty years apart. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

These characters are likely the same, I suppose. Perhaps a note that the character have not been confirmed to be the same person, but it is likely that they are.--SWM2448 22:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

In other words, you favor doing nothing, since that's already what's there. But I ask you this: what is the bigger speculation? That two old Horde death knights with the same name and location are the same character, or that they're not? Personally, I feel that Anya Eversong set a very dangerous precedent, which essentially states that we can never be sure of anything unless Blizzard explicitly and unambiguously states that it is so in no uncertain terms whatsoever. How many characters in Cataclysm are old NPCs who've gained last names or title promotions? How many of them wax poetic about the old days to give irrefutable confirmation that they're the same character? Yes, there are some situations where there is reasonable doubt and we shouldn't jump to conclusions. But there are other situations where there ISN'T reasonable doubt, and the only thing standing between sanity and pointless bureaucracy is Blizzard not feeling that "Yes, they are the same person" needs to be said. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Both stances have merit on a larger scale. It comes down to what we all want to do, and what attitude that we all want to have, as a wiki. To me, this is not an empty statement. What is our current attitude about such things? I feel that we are more open to common sense and original research than some other wikis I have edited, but this is based on the arbitrary attitudes of prominent users, and not quite on any definitive policy that I know of. So, about Ragnok, I do not know. I think we need a policy about what "reasonable doubt" is in these cases, and how much we should present as fact.--SWM2448 18:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I understand the desire to not jump to conclusions. Yet at the same time, I think we often go too far into the other direction, and not do anything until someone asks Blizzard in an interview, and they sigh and say "yes, wasn't it obvious?" If they'd never given Ragnok a last name in Shadow Wing, nobody would have ever questioned whether they were the same character. If he'd had a last name in BtDP but not in Shadow Wing, nobody would have ever questioned whether they were the same character. Yet when they use a new source of lore to expand on an older character, it's speculation that they're the same person. To me, that's what reasonable doubt is: when there's absolutely no reason to assume they're different characters except the lack of explicit confirmation that they're not. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact that they are both "old" death knights (that were only created once) and have the same name (orcs have more imagination than that), they are most likely the same character. This warrants a merge. --g0urra[T҂C] 19:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Hakkar, anyone? Anyway, I think this was asked at CDev questions, so let's wait for when they're answered to see if they give us any response. If not, we'll debate what to do with the 2 characters.--Lon-ami (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, in the case of Hakkar, they're little question that they're NOT the same person. The one in War of the Ancients is a demon that gets destroyed, while the one in WoW is a loa. This is a situation of the same character lacking a last name in one of his two appearances, and that is the SOLE reason why anyone has any doubt about it, for some unfathomable reason. If anyone can give me even a single reason to assume they're different characters beyond the lack of a last name in Beyond the Dark Portal (and "it doesn't say that they're the same character" doesn't count, because I don't think it should have to be said), I'll gladly concede the argument. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Anyone else have any opinions on this? Or anyone who can give me a valid reason to suspect they might be different characters? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

no, I vote for a merge :-) --LemonBaby (talk) 09:50, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

No, i also vote for a merge--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Already done. I suggest keeping Ragnok as a redirect, for a revert in case they end not being up the same.--Lon-ami (talk) 00:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I think this merge is a clear violation of policy. For any other lore characters with coinciding names pages are kept separated and if any user (usually Dark T Zeratul) has the smart idea to merge them, a vote is required to take the decision before doing. Do you know your acts set a dangerous precedent? --N'Nanz (talk) 17:10, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm the one who started the discussion here, explicitly for that reason. Stop accusing me of repeatedly breaking policy without checking the damn edit histories first. I don't appreciate it. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to accuse you (even if my tone is a little focused and I'm sorry about it) but I'm bored to see the same argumentation so often. I cited other articles where votes were casted and votes DO set out a policy. Otherwise there's no need to get the "democratic" vote option alive. Anarchy in wowpedia --N'Nanz (talk) 17:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Dangerous precedents?! Anarchy?! No. As for votes, consensus can happen with or without a vote, as long as it happens.--SWM2448 17:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Gourra supported the merge. Those who didn't seemed to be arguing purely from a position of semantics, since not a single person ever provided me with a reason to suspect they're different characters beyond his last name not being given in the first source. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

And what is the reason to suspect they are the same beyond you or me or Gourra or any other wowpedia member saying that? --N'Nanz (talk) 17:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Because both stories feature an Old Horde death knight (which, as Gourra pointed out, were only created ONCE from a very small number of orcs) named Ragnok. The first story ended with him alive in Outland, the second story started with him alive in Outland. For them to be different characters would require there to have been two orcs on the Shadow Council with the same name who were both brought back as death knights, and then to have one of them do nothing before Draenor exploded and then the other do nothing after Draenor exploded. To me, it's a much bigger leap of logic to assume they're different than that they're not. It's far more likely that Blizzard took an already existing death knight and gave him a last name as befitting his status as a major antagonist in their new story. Even timewise, things add up. Beyond the Dark Portal was released late 2008, and the Dragons of Outland manga in which Ragnok is the villain was first announced at BlizzCon of that same year. The coincidences are just far too numerous to assume they're different characters without at least SOMETHING to suggest they're not, which so far no one has provided. Even you simply dodged the question and asked me to provide evidence that they ARE the same character, which I have done, repeatedly, throughout this entire discussion. Can you give a better reason for them being separate than that Blizzard didn't explicitly say they're the same character? Because really, I don't think it needed to be said, and asking for that kind of confirmation in situations like this is setting a far more dangerous precedent of placing semantics and bureaucracy over information. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

In your sentences I found only one good word: "assume". These are some very good assumptions of yours and a wiki is based on facts, assumptions remain speculations. --N'Nanz (talk) 18:06, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Like assuming that they're not the same character on the sole basis that Blizzard didn't think people needed obvious things like that explained to them? Which, incidentally, is the only context in which I used the word "assume," making me think you didn't really read what I wrote at all. You're still avoiding my original question. What evidence is there to suggest they're not the same character? Because there's plenty to suggest that they are. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:10, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

"Like assuming that they're not the same character on the sole basis that Blizzard didn't think people needed obvious things like that explained to them" whoa Blizzard is making assumptions too... You can argument all the way, a wiki don't take interpretations and keeping pages divided is the only way to reflect this behavior --N'Nanz (talk) 18:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm arguing facts and evidence, of which you have provided none in return, instead choosing to argue from a position of semantics, red tape, and bureaucracy. Not once have you even made the slightest attempt to counter my arguments. Not once have you used even a single shred of lore or referenced anything in any way. It's impossible to discuss something when you're unwilling to discuss the point at hand, and just keep falling back on the same, tired argument of the lack of explicit confirmation that they're the same.

So what the hell. We'll do it your way. Of course, we need to be consistent, which means you'll need to go through and find all the NPCs who had their titles updated in Cataclysm and unmerge them. After all, we can't be sure that there aren't just two NPCs with the same name and circumstances but completely different ranks, because Blizzard didn't explicitly take the time to explain which characters are and aren't the same characters from previous works. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Occam's razor. Which is more obvious, them being two different guys that were part of the same organization and whatnot, or they being the same character? I think it's pretty obvious (coming from a former "keep them separated" supporter, just read above).

I know of other characters that may fall under the same circumstance, but I think they have "lack of lore" and "based on" factors, rather than them being the same characters. Anyway, feel free to post them, so we can check/start discussions on their talk pages, too.--Lon-ami (talk) 18:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

@Dark T

• Epic fail: those NPC have the same NPC-id previously had before Cata thus BLIZZARD stated they are the same, not users of wowpedia.

@Lon-ami

• Razor all the way. They should be or not the same character, to me it doesn't matter, this is a problem of policy, not of a single case issue. and if you read at what I stated more then a year ago, in many other cases policy (expressed through vote) decided to keep articles as such divided. --N'Nanz (talk) 18:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

As far as epic fails go, Lynnia Abbendis has Brigitte Abbendis's old Tyr's Hand character ID. Are you going to tell me they're the same character? All I'm getting out of you is that my proof "isn't good enough" for some inane pointless reason, yet you're offering none of your own. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well you know, I'm only a wowpedia user, I have not the authority to say the two Abbendis are the same. I'd suggest to keep the two article separated and add a note or a speculation tag or a trivia to the respective pages to say they have the same NPC-id.. Ops... that's exactly what's done!

edit: added format

--N'Nanz (talk) 19:13, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Did Blizzard state at any time during WoW that High General Abbendis is Brigitte Abbendis and not Lynnia Abbendis? No, they didn't, so they could be the very same person. Much like how NPCs in the game, that existed before Cataclysm, are only presumed to be the same since they existed with the same name. How can we know that the Skorn Whitecloud at Camp Sungraze is the same as the one that was at Bloodhoof Village? We only assume that it is the same, since they have the both the same name and gives the same quests.

But I'm straying off the point here; the real discussion here is that there are little facts that would argue that Ragnok is not the same person as the one in Beyond the Dark Portal. If you have some arguments that they wouldn't be the same, then by all means state them. --g0urra[T҂C] 19:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

When BLIZZARD gave a name to High General Abbendis there were no Lynnia in the game. Skorn Whitecloud is the NPC added in patch 1.11.1 (NPC-id 3052) that stationed in Bloodhoof village or the NPC added (or moved) in patch 4.0.3a (NPC-id 3052) that stationed in Camp Sungraze? This is pointless. I'm going to merge the various Samuro pages then... --N'Nanz (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Just saying the same pointless arguments as you do. And I'm still not seeing any arguments that Ragnok Bloodreaver would be the same Ragnok that is Beyond the Dark Portal. --g0urra[T҂C] 20:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

So it's lore when Blizzard gives Abbendis a first name, but it's speculation when Blizzard gives Ragnok a last name? Is that what you're saying? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

@Gourra

• [vote about Anya Eversong] what about this wind of change?

@Dark T

• in comics Brigitte is called High General too. What about Lynnia, do she have that title? --N'Nanz (talk) 20:29, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

If you don't see what makes this case different to this, I see no point in furthering discussing this. I've made my point clear enough, and if you don't believe that, then too bad for you. --g0urra[T҂C] 21:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

well... "orc immagination" didn't convinced me too much... --N'Nanz (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Nor, apparently, did both characters having the same race, class, first name, and location, or the fact that the second work that gave him a last name was announced a matter of months after the former was released. I'm beginning to think you won't accept any proof short of Chris Metzen himself explicitly saying, "yes, they are intended to be the same character," which strikes me as being unnecessary unless there's a reason to question that fact. Which, by the way, you still haven't provided.

In any event, I'm agreeing with Gourra: you're obstinately refusing to see the differences between this situation and others, nor have you even acknowledged the repeated requests to provide something - anything - to suggest that they're not the same character. It's utterly useless arguing with you, so I'm done. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)