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(→‎Consensus: votes)
(→‎'Socketable': putting my vote in replace section instead)
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{{vote|Keep, change to Cut/Uncut|sig=<span style="border-bottom: 1px dotted;cursor:help;" title="WoWWiki bureaucrat">[[User:Kaydeethree|k]]_[[User_talk:Kaydeethree|d]]<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Kaydeethree|3]]</sup></span> 00:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)|I agree that we need a distinction, but I'd rather go with cut/uncut with exceptions for the few cases where something's different.}}
* no votes yet.
 
   
 
=== 'Gem Items' ===
 
=== 'Gem Items' ===

Revision as of 00:55, 29 July 2009

Forums: Village pump → Gem type categories
Original category structure (some changes have already been made)
  • inventory items
    • jewel items (uncut gems)
      • epic jewels, rare jewels, uncommon jewels
  • item
    • gem items
      • uncut gem items (empty)
      • jewelcrafting crafted gem items
    • inventory items
      • equippable items
        • cut gem items
Current proposed category structure (28 July 2009 - afternoon)
  • Category:World of Warcraft inventory items
    • Category:World of Warcraft gems
      • Category:World of Warcraft common gems -- quality of item (cut, uncut, simple)
      • Category:World of Warcraft uncommon gems
      • Category:World of Warcraft rare gems
      • Category:World of Warcraft epic gems
      • Category:World of Warcraft cuttable gems --being uncut gem items that jewelcrafting turns into socketable items
      • Category:World of Warcraft socketable gem
        • Category:World of Warcraft jewelcrafting crafted gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft Bind on Equip socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft Bind on Pickup socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft dropped socketable gems.
        • Category:World of Warcraft purchased socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft quest socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft red socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft yellow socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft blue socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft orange socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft green socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft purple socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft meta socketable gems
        • Category:World of Warcraft prismatic socketable gems


Consensus

This is for consensus; I don't feel bound by voting rules as long as we can agree. I'll update the category list as things become clear.

'World of Warcraft' prefix

Keep "World of Warcraft" prefix on categories? Say yes, no, or some (specifying which).

Keep
  1. Some Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC) - (Keep on "Gem Items" category, drop for all others)
  2. All PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 15:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC) - (Until we reach a larger consensus (outside of gem categories) the WoW prefix should remain for consistency.)
Toss
  1. None (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
    Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
    | C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 23:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC) - (This is World of Warcraft Wiki (WoWWiki) - why do we have to state it again in the category names? If we were Blizzard wiki - then yeah WoW for the WoW sutff SC for the Starcraft and Diablo for Diablo - we only deal in WoW so it it obvious it is a WoW <whatever>)
  2. None /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 8:08 AM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT) - (If we could at least drop them for the "deep categories" I think that would be a huge improvement.)
  3. none k_d3 00:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) - (Top-level only, please.)

'Socketable'

Keep "socketable" on categories names where it is listed? (Vote: Keep, Toss, Replace)

Keep
  1. Keep Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC) - (because I suggested it, mostly. Talk me down?)
  2. Keep (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
    Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
    | C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 23:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC) - (I agree with how they are now in the proposal.)
  3. Keep PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 19:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC) - (However it should be kept on all categories in which there is a distinction between socketable gems and nonsocketable gems (including uncut versus cut meta gems). Also "cut" is not always equivalent to "socketable" - [Icy Prism] for example. Finally, drop Burning Crusade gems as a non-sequitur in regards to the parent category.)
  4. Keep k_d3 00:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) - (I agree that we need a distinction, but I'd rather go with cut/uncut with exceptions for the few cases where something's different.)
Toss
  1. Toss /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 8:16 AM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT) - (Confusing word and un-needed because "cut" is equivalent.)
Replace (provide replacement suggestion)
  1. Keep, change to Cut/Uncut k_d3 00:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) - (I agree that we need a distinction, but I'd rather go with cut/uncut with exceptions for the few cases where something's different.)

'Gem Items'

I think we currently have consensus on "gems", except for the base "WoW gem items" category. Tree adjusted to reflect.

Keep
  1. Some Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC) - (Keep on base category (WoW gem items), everything below can be just 'gems')
  2. Some (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
    Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
    | C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 23:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
    - (I agree with Items being on some of the categories but - almost everything is an Item so again why do we have to restate it?)
Toss
  1. Toss all PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 19:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC) - ("Gem items" doesn't feel right; however, if we're going to have WoW gem items as the parent category, the children should be "gem items" not gems. The "inventory items" -> "gems" parent/child relationship works better as an "items"-dropping point.)
  2. Toss /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:26 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT) - (Not trying to be difficult guys, but I'm going to second Pcj)
  3. Toss Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 00:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC) - (I'm willing to toss the lot. Mind, "jewelcrafting crafted gem items" will still need to be converted to "jewelcrafting crafted gems")
  4. Toss (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
    Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
    | C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 00:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC) - (As I mentioned before why does ITEM have to be stated - when it is obvious that it is such a item.)
  5. Toss k_d3 00:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) - (If we toss 'items' it should go all the way. The top-level category "World of Warcraft items" has the word in its very name")
Abstain
  1. Abstain /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 8:20 AM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT) - (Badly worded vote. We should keep "gem" but not "items", except at the highest level. Category:Gem items is appropriate but Category:Red gem items seems redundant.)

Other gem categories

Got other gem categories a) you want, b) you'd be willing to maintain, and c) can justify? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


Howbizr, I'm guessing you're a 'no' on "WoW", a 'no' on "Items", and " 'cut' instead of 'socketable'", but I leave it to you to state. Fandy, I'm guessing much the same, but more 'meh'. Morph/Jrooksjr, I've no real read on you.

I've tagged those people I thought most likely to want the prefixes, so I've no further objection to deciding them now. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments

I was under the impression we had, at one point, categories for "red gems", "Orange Gems", etc. Socketable gems never could all fit under Jewelcrafted items categories. And having just encountered Category:World of Warcraft cut gem items, I will likely be going through and topping off that category.

... Discovering that the "cut gem items" category is separate from the "jewelcrafted gem items" reinforces my opinion that that there should be a cross-categorization of some sort. That there isn't a "cut gem" article kinda calls into question how the term came to be used.

I'm confident this has come up before, perhaps in archived Village Pump talk. Could someone dig up the arguments against colored gem categories? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

As I remember, people spent so much time arguing about all the categories with World of Warcraft prefix or not, I don't think we ever got to the point of gem color categories. The item categorization is pretty messed up in general. The later professions (jewelcrafting and inscription) are probably the worst off. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 5:13 PM PST 9 Jul 2009
Well, then. Shall we resume that discussion? Would you prefer...
  • Socketable gems (allows both crafted and cut gems) -> "matches red (yellow, blue, meta) socket" gems
  • or Socketable gems -> Red (blue, purple, meta, prismatic) gems
  • or (the categorization scheme in the box that Jay is holding) IE "something else"
And how about names for the categories? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Assuming the "World of Warcraft..." prefix police have retired or aren't paying attention, I don't really care that much. I thought cut gem items and jewelcrafting crafted gem items were the same thing, but whoever made the category seems to think they're different. Instead of "cut gem items" vs. "jewelcrafting crafted gem items", I'd prefer "jewelcrafting socketable gem items", "purchased socketable gem items", and "dropped socketable gem items". Are there any exceptions? I hope I'm not getting too off topic.
As for putting all socketable gems in a Socketable gems category, I'm fine with it allowing both crafted and cut gems. I'd prefer subcategories of "<socket compatibility> socketable gems". --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:33 PM PST 10 Jul 2009
Stormjewels currently come in the fishing quests award bag. They don't quite fall under the standard "drop" definition, I don't think. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC) edit: Note Inv enchant voidsphere [Void Sphere], not jewelcrafted. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Added a proto-tree at the top, indicating what I've found current, and what we've currently proposed. The existing categories need to be rationalized regardless of us inventing new ones. Many many articles currently in "crafted gems" would migrate to "socketable gems", freeing up the category to be more like the other "(skill) crafted items" categories. "Jewel" should be removed from our lexicon, IMO, to be replaced by the distinction "gems" vs "socketable gems" (with not all gems being craftable into socketable gems).

Individual socketable gem pages would fall under: (rarity) items, (acquired by) items, (matching sockets) items; the last repeated as necessary.

Please feel free to edit the above trees, to show categories I missed, or ones desired. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

As you can see, they are disorganized. The term "jewel" was initially used for socketable gems by Blizzard, but the community quickly crushed it and now they are called gems. I knew I forgot a "quest socketable gem items" category. I will make a proposed category tree in a day or so. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:16 PM PST 13 Jul 2009
Another gem category tree structure proposal:
  • inventory items
    • gem items (what Wowhead calls "Simple Gems"?)
      • common gems
      • uncommon gems
      • rare gems
      • epic gems
    • cuttable gem items (uncut, but cuttable gems)
    • socketable gems
      • crafted gems
      • dropped gems
      • purchased gems
      • quest gems
      • red
        • orange
        • purple
      • blue
        • green
        • purple
      • yellow
        • green
        • orange
      • meta
      • prismatic
That should cover most of it. I don't consider gems equippable itesm, since you apply them to equippable items, but they aren't equippable themselves. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:10 AM PST 21 Jul 2009
Updated. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 7:03 PM PST 23 Jul 2009
"Color of gem" cats (red, purple, etc)... are all purple gems also in red cat? or is purple CAT in red cat? or neither? Also, Q on pearls: JC transforms them like it does "real" cuttable gems. There's only one transformed result, though. Wowhead treats them as simple, but they could also be 'cut'. Opinion? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 18:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I supposed green, orange, and purple could go under they're base colors, but I was trying to keep it simple. A pearl is still a gem, just not a mineral (aka not mined). I would put pearls in rare gem items (Siren's Tear) or uncommon gem items (other pearls), and cuttable gem items (pearls from BC or later). They aren't socketable until they're cut. I'm not sure what the confusion is exactly. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 12:09 PM PST 22 Jul 2009
Confusion - just that WoWhead (simple gems definition) classifies (eg)siren's tear as simple gem, not 'cuttable'. I'm easy with green/orange/purple being or not being in base color cats. For a first run, "not" is simpler, as you say. Can always be added later if someone wants.
More than 10 days since we started this, nobody else seems interested, we seem to have a plan. Time to proceed? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not have a Jewelcrafting character so I can't / wont comment too much - overall you look like you have it figured out on how you want to do it, but in my oppinion on the colors - you should have the 3 primary colors (red, yellow and blue) as Main categories and then the secondary colors as sub categories (orange under red & yellow, green under blue & yellow and purple under red &blue). -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 20:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a primary (eeek!) example of the issue we were talking about above: are we talking about "color of the gem" (as seen, for instance, in the jewelcrafter skill window), or "color of the socket" (or rather, "what matches the socket"). When you're talking about 'gem color', it is hard to justify 'green' as a subset of 'red'. When you're talking about 'fits the socket', it becomes a little difficult to justify 'green' at all. Would mention on the red/blue/yellow categories, along the lines of "prismatic, Orange, and Purple gems also match red sockets.
I guess I semi-misunderstood - I thought you were talking about the Socket colors they fit into - Blizz icons do not always match the supposed colors of the socket they fit into ( I was meaning Primary color ((sockets in this case)) Red, Yellow and Blue - Secondary color sockets Orange, Green, Purple -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 18:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
P.S. Green would never be a sub-set of Red, it is subsets of Blue and Yellow. -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 18:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Hmm prismatics, I forgot about them ( again I am not a Jewlcrafter) - but yeah I guess they would would go under all 3, but again as stated before - overal you seem to have it figured out -- this was more of an oppinion on my part -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 18:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
... another question, I guess, is whether the category name should be Category:Purple socketable gem items rather than Category:Purple socket gem items? I would agree with 'socketable', to avoid the confusion. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:09, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I think socketable should be the way to go -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 18:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Looking at it, perhaps "meta socket gems" should stay as was, since they only activate in the proper socket, unlike 'color gems'. And I'm not as sure, on prismatic gems, whether 'socketable' applies as well. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree Meta's would go into their own socketable categories - since they do not give any benefit in any other socket -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 18:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
A bit more subtle than that: I like "meta socket gems" vs "meta socketable gems" as the name. Agree/disagree? It is a departure from all the other gem categories in that regard. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 19:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I can agree with that -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 19:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


Common/uncommon/rare epic:

  1. Do we keep these categories?
  2. If so, Do we have separate categories for (eg) rare simple gems vs rare cuttable gems? If we have quality category for one and not the other, that becomes awkward.

Thoughts? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

This comes into play when contemplating where to move (eg) Inv misc gem stone 01 [Jade] and Inv jewelcrafting gem 01 [Forest Emerald] to.--Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
This one I can't help with - I do not know the Category struction for the gems. -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 21:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not getting involved in this for obvious reasons, but i just noticed one of the questions was relating to something i did. The cut gems vs. jewelcrafting crafted gems i thought would be selfexplanitory, but apparently not. There are gems that come pre-cut and have nothing to do with jewelcrafting, so i made both. -- Zeal (T/C)  08:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge Socketable gems with 'gem items'?

Howbizr suggests we merge Socketable gems into "gem items". I hope he will explain more, here, himself. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

OMG I'm a girl. Haven't you even peeked at my user page? Smiley Okay so I'll read your forum, just give me some time to soak it in. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:12 PM, 23 Jul 2009 (EDT)
In Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) defense - I thought you were Male Frowney as well - your main page shows you have female characters - but that does not mean anything - my father has all female characters ingame but he is not a female -- (M o r p hJames E. Rooks, Jr. aka: Morph
Morphgnome & Morphdraenei
| C | TLeave me a message on my Discussion/Talk Page) IconSmall Gnome MaleMorphgnomeIconSmall Draenei MaleMorphdraenei 21:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I must stare at my contrib count too much "This user employs peasants to count her contributions." But Pcj also called me out publically as a "token female" [1] (LOL no offense taken). /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:27 PM, 23 Jul 2009 (EDT)
My bad. Smiley And no, actually, I haven't seen your user page, except to pass unto your talk page... Smiley There was someone else (Jiyambi? I dunno) that I was caught out this way on. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
So as a very dedicated jewelcrafter (see Template:User All Cuts) since the release of the profession, I see gems and jewels like this:
  • A jewel (also known as "simple gem"), should only be used to refer to items such as [Huge Emerald] that are exclusively a regeant for Blacksmithing, Engineering, and even Jewelcrafting jewelry items (necklaces, rings, misc cloth helms, etc), but cannot be cut by a jewelcrafter.
  • Everything else, which is the vast majority of items, is a gem
  • From here on gems have qualities. They don't fit very nicely into a "tree" - it's more like branches from a bush, lacking a central trunk
    • (Binary) Gem is cut or uncut
    • (Mutually exclusive) Gem is BoE or BoP
    • (Mutually exclusive) Drop, Crafted, or Purchased (there are no "BoP quest" gems that I'm aware of, although Stormjewels are psuedo "BoE quest")
    • (Mutually exclusive) Gem is from the BC Expansion or the Wrath Expansion. Why bother with this distinction? Because Blizz completely eclipsed the old gems. Even the best-of-the-best JC only gems from BC are worse than the lowest level crafted BoE greens you get from Wrath. For all practical purposes, there is no reason to ever use the old gems because you can get a new one for 1g-5g that will be more powerful. Note, gems themselves have no level restriction (yet). They're restricted simply by the level of gear that has sockets. I like to use [Necklace of the Deep] as an example. You always could and still can equip epic gems, throw it on the AH (because socketing BoE gems doesn't bind the item to you), and sell it to twinks. Pretty neat, because even enchanting isn't like that.
    • (Mutually exclusive) Gem has exactly one color, which relates to matching to sockets: Red, Orange, Yellow, Blue, Green, Purple, Meta, Prismatic. While orange gems are red gems (like squares are parallelograms), the gem is still orange, it's not red. It only matches to a red socket, and counts towards metas, but it's orange. You could make the same argument about it being yellow, so let's just stick with orange and ignore the color wheel. I would even go so far as to avoid the orange gem cat being a sub-cat of red and yellow gems. I'd rather the discussion about socket matching be left the JC articles and not convoluted in the category tree. Just leave colors exclusive.
    • Socketable is just a bad word. I would stick to cut and uncut. If they're uncut, they're basically just "pre-socketable." We want to clearly distinguish the (mostly retired) jewels from the gems people actually use in the end game. And with this 3rd or 4th round of "leveling ease" coming out in Patch 3.2.0, I think it's fair to focus on the end game.
So some examples.
  • [Dragon's Eye] would simply have the categories "uncut gem" and "boe gem."
  • Whereas a [Bold Dragon's Eye] would have the categories "bop", "cut", and "prismatic" (although after the patch, it should be changed to "red").
  • [Bold Blood Garnet] I would give the cats of "boe", "cut", "red", and "BC". I really wouldn't bother tagging all the "new" gems as "wrath," but I think for historical purposes, it might be nice to group all the "BC" gems, and "everything else" is just in the Wrath bucket by default.
There may be some merit to doing more specific branches like "JC only", "PvP", etc but I wanted to explain the simple model first and go from there. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 6:06 PM, 23 Jul 2009 (EDT)

Wish you'd joined this discussion, oh, 12 hours earlier... Could you write up a proposed category list, the way Fandyllic did? edit: would help to call out the changes by bolding or tagging or something.

As I said earlier, "Jewel" should be disposed of, as it has no distinct definition, where "cuttable gem" does. If I, someone who is NOT a dedicated jewelcrafter, cannot intuitively determine the difference *just from the names*, how would you anticipate someone fresh off the street doing so?

I avoid 'cut' primarily due to lack of imagination (in the face of "sockets"). A secondary excuse could be that 'cut' only applies (when examined rigorously) to gems actually transformed by jewelcrafting, whereas "socketable" specifically describes the use to which you put the product of cutting. I agree, it's a horrible word, though.

I have no problem with marking "BC cut/socketable gems" as separate. The distinction of "eclipsed" breaks down, though, in the face of the fact that uncommon and even rare level gems are similarly eclipsed by epic ones, within the WotLK set. It's a problem also seen in enchanting, but not as much in tailoring and blacksmithing due to level restrictions. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

To give you an idea of what I mean... I've seen people take an old gem they had in the bank from BC but didn't use, vendor it for the 3g, buy a newer gem with 20% higher stats for 2g. It's that stupid. Smiley
I'll try to work on the cat tree, but it's hard for me. I normally shy away from them because they kind of scare me. But I'm pretty passionate about JC, so if we could get rid of "socketable" in the names of the cats, I'll be happy, lol. "Socketable" in-line with descriptions I can live with. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 9:48 PM, 23 Jul 2009 (EDT)
I definitely don't want to start using "jewel" to mean something like "simple gem", since Blizzard initially was using the term jewel for socketable gems. Also, I'll fix my example category tree to use socketable. I think I was just lazy and started copy/pasting after I typed socket. --Gengar orange 22x22Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 7:00 PM PST 23 Jul 2009
I'm pretty much stopped on this, Howbizr, unless/until you come up with your alternate category arrangement.
--- Putting names aside, do you disagree with any of the category concepts in the working description? I assume that we could get a bot to come in later and do the manual C2C work, once we agree on names. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Ya sorry I fell asleep last night. Was unusually tired at about 10:30 EDT. For "category concepts" should I look at the descriptions of the categories on their respective pages? /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 4:25 PM, 24 Jul 2009 (EDT)

Gems: other issues

I've made notes on {{Minerals}} and {{Gems}}. Currently, these templates are used in a hit-or-miss fashion. I have interpreted 'Minerals' to be "mining crafted gem-like items", as opposed to "conceivable cut-gem sources". 'Gems' seems closer to a gemcutting related template, but as I said on its talk page, it is too unfocused for me to come to grips with. Do you folks have opinions on the use we should put these templates to? And any changes you think would be useful? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Going with what Fandy said above, could we make {{Minerals}} and {{Gems}} be mutually exclusive? So if it can be cut/socketed, put it on {{Gems}}, but if it's a legacy "gem/jewel" and can never be cut/socketed, put it on {{Minerals}}? /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 4:28 PM, 24 Jul 2009 (EDT)
Minerals vs Gems: Having "grown up" in an era where Inv misc gem stone 01 [Jade] WAS a gem here, I am loath to kick it out of bed for the New Hotness. It hasn't become any less "gemmy", we just need a new term to distinguish them. Even so, calling them "Minerals" would put the minerals template to bed. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Quest gems: Hard to Kill -- Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
They are less gemy, because "gem" got redefined to be something you can equip, instead of a reagent. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 8:06 AM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)

Alternate proposal

Points
  1. Dropped redundant language like "World of Warcraft" prefix or "items" suffix.
  2. Most groups are mutually exclusive - don't tag red,yellow,blue,prismatic for instance. Just use prismatic.
  3. Dropped the confusing word "socketable"
  4. "Gems" and "Minerals" are also mutually exclusive. "Gems" include:
    1. Items that can be socketed
    2. "pre-socketed" items or "uncut" as JC says
  5. "Minerals" or "non-gems" are the catch-all for legacy items from classic and BC WoW that sound like "gems" but are not related to sockets. These items are reagents for low level crafting (blacksmithing, jewelcrafting, engineering)
Tree
  • Category:Inventory items
    • Category:Minerals (not even any need to have quality or binding, because I think they're all BoE uncommon)
    • Category:Gems
      • Category:BoE gems, Category:BoP gems
        • (sub of BoP only) Category:Jewelcrafting BoP gems
      • Category:Common gems, Category:Uncommon gems, Category:Rare gems, Category:Epic gems
      • Category:Burning Crusade gems (where applicable)
      • Category:Cut gems, Category:Uncut gems
        • (sub for uncut only) Category:Engineering reagent, Category:Jewelcrafting reagent, Category:Blacksmithing reagent
      • Category:Red gems, Category:Orange gems, Category:Yellow gems, Category:Green gems, Category:Blue gems, Category:Purple gems, Category:Meta gems, Category:Prismatic gems
      • Category:Dropped gems, Category:Crafted gems, Category:Purchased gems, Category:Quest gems (none currently)

Here's my rough draft, as per request. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 4:54 PM, 24 Jul 2009 (EDT)

It looks like your changes are:
  1. remove 'socket' or 'socketable' everywhere, as well as "world of warcraft" prefix
    "socketable gems" -> "cut gems", "cuttable gems" -> "uncut gems"
  2. call "old gems" (aka simple gems) "minerals" (which also disposes of the "minerals" template as counter to nomenclature)
  3. add "burning crusade gems", "BoE", "BoP", and "BoP jewelcrafted" categories.
Still unclear:
  1. Do common/uncommon/rare/epic apply only to cut gems, uncut gems, both?
  2. Why "engineering Reagent", etc, instead of current "engineering ingredient item", etc.?
  3. There are very few "uncut gems" (notably, raw metas) that do not also have "other" jewelcrafting uses. Is the distinction necessary?
I think "jewelcrafting crafted" is still a distinction we should make re gems. While unlikely, other skills could concievably have recipes added to make things to put into sockets.
I've no objection to your proposed BoE/BoP categories, nor the BC one. But I think we need to run the "drop the WoW prefix" by WoW Prefix Gestapo, lest we get a pogrom called down upon us. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Like I said... rough draft.
  • Always worth a shot to get rid of the prefixes - some of these proposed categories were really cumbersome/adjective-heavy.
  • I think dropping "uncut" and keeping "cut" is fair. Just remember there are "cut" gems that are not crafted, drops, vendor, etc.
  • I would still go either way with the color cat (cut only or both uncut and cut). A red uncut gem can make a red cut, and red cuts are only made by red uncut gems. Same goes for metas. But you're right - the uncut gems are reagents for multiple professions so it's a little bit confusing, although not terribly, in that way.
  • I dropped "items" to be consistant, but if you need it to be more verbose, it's at your own peril ("world of warcraft engineering ingredient gem item" is really awkward).
  • I'm in favor of "old gems" or "minerals" or "jewels" - I just would like to see all "cuttable" and "cut" gems grouped together, or rather grouped away from the legacy stuff. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:57 PM, 24 Jul 2009 (EDT)
Ah, but we have folks with a vested interest in keeping the prefixes... I'd rather not get into a screaming match if I can avoid it. Same goes for "item" suffix. Me, I could care less, as long as it seemed consistent.
  • We have plenty enough items that qualify as 'cuttable' or 'uncut' that a category for them works out. As well, it is a shoo-in for 'jewelcrafting ingredients', kinda by definition. I would more argue "which name" than "at all".
  • "All uncut go into a color cat" would kinda ask for them to be put first in sort order lest they be lost. With the number of cuttable "color X" raw materials going up, I'm reluctant to start that. Collectively, I don't think that eg "engineering gems" would deserve a separate category from "engineering ingredients". That's not a distinction we make even for Bars, and there are more bars than uncut gem types....
  • Many of the uncut gems pal around with the legacy gems in the mining crafted items category.


Hmm... I wouldn't have any problem with:
  • Inventory
    • Gem items (simple gems go here)
      • uncut/cuttable gems
      • socketable/cut gems
yadda, yadda
Would that work for you? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
If the "WoW category nazis" seriously want to advocate for Category: World of Warcraft Burning Crusade gem items I'm going to laugh at them. I think we should have a policy that all non-Category:Things to do categories have a max of 4 words. When it was just World of Warcraft (insert one noun here) okay, I could support that, clumsy as it may be. But having multiple suffixes and prefixes is silly.
Eirik, you're kind of losing me here with the long comments, just make a new "draft" - it's easier. Please use the full category names you're proposing so we're not hiding any naming issues. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 11:01 PM, 24 Jul 2009 (EDT)

Other Gem comments

As I understand Zeal's comment, anything that you put into a socket, that was not jewelcrafting-created, was under 'cut gem items'. That would encompass what currently is proposed as 'purchased' and 'quest' gems. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow prefix consenus

Could we all agree, given the depth of these categories, that we should drop post and prefixes? Leave them on the high level categories for "general consistancy," but this is just rediculous:

Category : World of Warcraft epic gem items | World of Warcraft jewelcrafting crafted gem items | World of Warcraft blue socketable gem items

when this is what we meant to say:

Category : Epic gems | Jewelcrafter only | Blue cuts

/chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 1:14 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)

I agree it's ridiculous, but you need a consensus for consistency outside just gems. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 17:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Odd, but I agree wih Pcj on the name consistency issue, but mostly for consistency with currently established item categories, which seem to care the WoW prefix to the bottommost level. Anyone have prominent counterexamples? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's just resurrect the old post (heavens knows where it was) and ping the posters who actually cared. If they don't speak up, then the honest thing to do (be bold) is to impose a depth guideline. Something similar wasn't brought up before (that I remember), and I think it's definitely different than what was being mentioned in the previous discussion (which seemed lateral moreso than vertical). /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:22 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)

Item suffix comments

Howbizr's abstention notwithstanding, I think we're agreed on dropping the 'items' suffix from all but the base category of World of Warcraft gem items. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eirik Ratcatcher (talk · contr).

Given the option Pcj described, I'm siding with him. I really think simpler language is a good idea. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:29 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)

Socketable adjective comments

Howbizr, do you feel it should be replaced, or removed entirely? I'll remind you that "cut" is not descriptive of several cases (pearls, Sphere gems from enchanting), and may not match well as a replacement adjective.

Fandyllic, any opinions? Pcj (other than the WoW opinion)? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Voted on the rest of it. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 19:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
You think an Inv misc gem diamond 02 [Icy Prism] is a gem? It's just a crafted item. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:31 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)
The icon appears to be that of a gem, it can be "cleaved" into other "gems". I suppose it depends on your definition of gem (and adequately determining exactly what real-world thing Icy Prism corresponds to). Also as Eirik pointed out, not all socketable "gems" are cut. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 21:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
They weren't all cut by a player jewelcrafters, but they were (conceivably) cut by an NPC jewelcrafter (if you want to get really RPG-ey). I can't make a [Purified Jaggal Pearl] without my [Simple Grinder]. But it still seems like poor judgement to go from a term everyone understand ("cut") to an awkward term ("socketable") simply for less than a dozen legacy items no one will ever ever use again. I'll give you that "spheres" aren't "cut" - they were "enchanted," whatever that was supposed to mean. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:56 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)
Since I didn't say before, I think the [Icy Prism] and [Brilliant Glass] should just be container items. No one calls them gems, because gems wearable. I've heard it called a "cooldown" or a "transmute" however. /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 5:59 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)
I actually think more people would understand "socketable" and what it means over "cut".--PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 22:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I still get people asking me the ABCs of Jewelcrafting (what's a socket, can I put a blue gem in a red socket, what's the reagent for a strength gem, do you have resilience gems?).
Again with the in game examples (which is where people will draw from), I see ads for "JC LFW - ALL POPULAR CUTS" or "JC LFW - ALL PVP CUTS" but not "JC LFW - ALL WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOCKETABLE GEM ITEMS" LOL. Winky /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 6:05 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)
Yes, I get those too (people asking for a list of all my resilience gems after I list my profession - and I have every cut - deserve the spam they get). Your point about cuts is well taken, but I am still not completely sure about the whole "hey an NPC cut it at one point in time so everyone will just go along with this being a 'cut' gem" thing. Either way, we should probably use a subcategory to separate the JC cuts and the PvP/fishing daily/BC heroic/quest gems. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 22:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
We've got that planned to some extent, Pcj, with the 'purchased', 'dropped', and 'quest' categories (in the list at the top). Got requests for other categories? Or reorganization ideas? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Latecoming, looking for a summary

Ok... the section heading explains it all.

What's the current plan for categories so we can get this nailed down? Voted upon if necessary? Implemented? There's a good number of different options at present from my cursory glance of the page. --k_d3 22:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

See "Current proposed category structure" at the top, and the Consensus vote below it. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 22:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The items that we could probably use feed back on are
  1. Should we carry the "World of Warcraft" pre-fix at all? only the root level?
  2. Should we carry the "items" post-fix at all? only the root level?
  3. Do you like the term "socketable"/"else" or "cut"/"uncut" (or have any better organization ideas)? In particular, some examples of items that don't fit the mold include [Purified Jaggal Pearl] (came from a pearl), [Tigerseye] (can never be a cut gem), [Prismatic Sphere] (not made by a JC), and [Icy Prism] (transmute container item thingy). /chomp‎ Howbizr(t·c) 6:43 PM, 28 Jul 2009 (EDT)

A good afternoon's work

Hoping for Kaydeethree's input still. However, given suggestions and prevailing opinions:

  • removed 'items' from "WoW gem items"
  • left 'socketable' in, added it back to meta gems
  • removed 'BC gems'

Let me explain the latter: The goal behind it is to find those gems that are not obsoleted. Yet, the only thing the 'BC gems' category lets you find are those that ARE obsolete. Doesn't help for searching for things you want. Howbizr, since you suggested it in the first place, can you think of a reason that the category would be useful, since it doesn't sideline gems out of any other category?

Further comments/requests not amenable to the votes above? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 00:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Need to fix "socketable gem items" to "socketable gems" too. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 00:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
TBH I never really agreed with the "WoW <foo> items" pre-/suffixes on every cat. At the top-level, sure... but it's not really necessary to have that duplicated all through the tree.
Something that was brought up on my talk page was a cut/uncut, socketable/something else decision... I'd go with cut/uncut as that's what is most often used in game. The exceptions can be handled separately if it's really necessary... though I'd just stick them in whichever of cut/uncut fits better.
If we need a "current" cat at all, I'd go with a "Wrath gems" cat. We can do BC gems for consistency too. This way we've got a "current" category, and as soon as the next expansion comes out, we create a new "current" category and just update the relevant links on mainspace pages. --k_d3 00:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)